SPEAKER_04 0:00

College football's evolving fast. For dedicated fans of the sport, it's been really hard to keep up with all the changes these days. The past three seasons, we've seen the creation of the transfer portal, which leads to thousands of student athletes transferring to new schools every year. There's the advent of NIL, which often plays a role in those transfers. There's radical conference realignment and, well, dismemberment. And coming soon, there's the expansion of the playoffs from four teams to 12. Is your head spinning? My head's spinning, because that's a lot of changes to digest in such a short period of time. We're seeing traditions that are decades old going away. But it's important to remember that college football has always been changing, and also that there are some things that will always be the same. And one of those things is that each second Saturday in December, the John W. Heisman Memorial Trophy will be awarded to the most outstanding player in college football. And in the interest of preserving and expanding upon this incredible tradition that is the Heisman Trophy, we've started this podcast. And we're doing it because we've got some stories to tell, some amazing stories. Not only about the current group of players trying to win the Heisman Trophy, we're also gonna take a deep dive into Heisman history and talk to the former players who won the Heisman back in the day when everything was different. And as we connect the past with the present, we're gonna peel back some of those layers of history that have maybe obscured what the Heisman Trophy is all about. I mean, this is probably the most misunderstood institution in college football. But no longer. The Heisman Trophy is more than just a trophy. It's also a charitable trust with a vital mission to use the power of the Heisman Trophy to help underserved communities all around the country. You probably didn't know that, but if you listen to this podcast, you will. And come December when Heisman Week descends upon New York City. If you listen to this podcast, it'll be like having a backstage pass at the Heisman ceremony itself. That being said, it's time to kick things off. Welcome to the official Heisman Trophy Podcast. Hello everyone, and thank you for joining us on the first episode of the official Heisman Trophy Podcast. As the man said, I'm your host, Chris Houston, and let me tell you, you are in for a real treat if you love college football and you like to follow what's going on with the Heisman Trophy race. We've got a fantastic show lined up for you today. Later on, we're gonna check in with a member of the Heisman Trust, Jim Corcoran. And now that high school football's underway all around the country, we're going to share some conversations we had recently with some high schools with very strong connections to the Heisman Trophy. But we're gonna kick off our first episode with a man who needs no introduction, but I'm gonna give him one anyway. There's probably no one more fitting to appear on the first episode of the official Heisman Trophy podcast than the only player to win two Heisman Trophies. I'm talking about 1974 and 1975 winner Archie Griffin of the Ohio State University. Thanks for coming on the show. Well, thank you for having me. Look forward to it. I want to talk with you today a little bit about the accomplishment of having won two Heismans. Before you won that second Heisman, there had only been four players who'd even tried. There was uh Doc Blanchard, there was uh Doug Walker, there was Vic Janowitz, and there was Roger Staubak. What do you think you did differently, or what do you think changed for you to where suddenly you were able to win that second Heisman?

SPEAKER_06 3:52

Uh Chris, I don't know if I did anything different. Uh my whole thing going into that uh second year was just to be the best that I could possibly be. Uh, you know, I understood that nobody had won it twice. Um I expect to win it twice. Not really, uh, because nobody had won it twice. Uh, but what I I I did is I wanted to make sure that I gave it my very, very best shot. And that meant that I had to train uh uh harder uh than I had done uh the year before. That meant that I had to be mentally prepared, uh better than I'd ever been uh before. Uh and it meant that uh you know I had to be on a football team that was as good as it was uh the year before. And uh all those things uh just seemed to happen. Uh but uh uh the best thing that I think I did was uh got it out of my mind and uh wanted to make sure that uh I was just being the best player that I could possibly be. And if uh things would work out, then that's what they would do.

SPEAKER_04 4:54

I read somewhere that Coach Woody Hayes said that you came into that 1975 fall camp with the attitude that you were basically trying to win back your starting job. Does that sound right?

SPEAKER_06 5:04

Oh, absolutely. Uh you you you you had to. I mean, and I always felt that anyway. I mean, every year I I went in the training camp as as if I'm I'm fighting for a starting spot because you know I remembered that Joe when I was a freshman, uh I ended up uh playing and and uh a couple older guys uh didn't get that opportunity to start uh because I did. So there could be a freshman or or a sophomore uh that could come in and and and have a great season just like I did uh early in in my career. So I always approached it uh uh that way. Uh but the main thing was uh just being the best uh that I could possibly be, uh knowing that you know uh the good Lord up above, if it were meant for me to uh win it a second time, uh it would happen. If it wasn't, then then it wasn't gonna happen. But I did not want to be able to say, or anybody to be able to say, that I didn't give it my best effort. And that's what I went into training camp and into the season uh trying to do, give it my very, very best effort.

SPEAKER_04 6:02

As you were doing that and you're looking at the preseason going into that year, you've got Joe Washington out of Oklahoma. He was probably your main challenger, and then there are some other guys who were considered dark horses at the time. Tony Dorsett out of Pittsburgh was going to be a junior. You had Chuck Muncie out of California, who probably wasn't that well known just yet. And then you had uh, you know, whoever the latest USC tailback was going to be in this case, it was Ricky Bell. Uh, do you think having already won the Heisman, do you felt like you were kind of playing with some house money in a sense that you you kind of had an advantage over these guys mentally?

SPEAKER_06 6:35

I I I really didn't feel like I had uh an advantage. Because again, uh, you know, uh nobody hit one or twice. So uh obviously there was no advantage uh to winning it uh as a junior. Certainly uh your name was known, but all those guys that you mentioned, uh Joe, uh Tony Dorset, Chuck Muncie, uh Ricky Bell, uh all those guys. Excellent, excellent football players, great football players, as a matter of fact. So, you know, uh I knew that they could win it just as easily as I could. And uh again, uh my whole thing was just being the best that I could be. I didn't want to worry about winning. Now, deep in my heart, I wanted to win it. Uh, but you know, it if if you think about it like that, it's gonna really uh put a burden on you. And then early uh after I'd won it, you know, people kept saying, hey Archie, you uh you got another chance to win the Heisman Trophy. Uh good luck, you're gonna win it, da-da-da-da-da, patting me on my back, all those kind of things. Uh, but deep in my heart, uh, you know, I didn't know if that was possible because nobody had done it. But it deep in my heart also, you if you ask me if I wanted to win it, yeah, yeah, I wanted to win it. Because Woody Hayes used to have this saying, he's he always said you're either getting better or you're getting worse, you never stay the same. So kind of uh deep down, I was thinking, well, in order for me to be at least the same or better, uh I probably need to win the Hydro Trophy. And that put a lot of pressure on me thinking that way. So I tried to get it out of my mind and not really think about it. I I can remember uh one day uh reading a verse in the book of Psalms, uh Psalm 37, 4, where it says, Delight yourself in the Lord and he'll give you the desires of your heart. And when I read that verse, it was like somebody just lifted a big weight off my shoulder because that verse told me that my job was to find joy in serving the Lord. And if I would do that, you know, he'd do one of two things. He'd take that desire away from me of wanting to win a hide in the trophy or give it to me uh as a gift. And uh he gave it to me as a gift.

SPEAKER_04 8:32

Well, it certainly seems like you played with a lot of joy in the first few games of that 1975 season. Just looking at those rushing totals, you had a great start. You had 111 yards against Michigan State, so you were able to get a little revenge after losing to the Spartans the previous year, and then you had a big game against uh Penn State, 128 yards, they were number 10 at the time, 157 against North Carolina, and then a really big 160-yard game against number five UCLA. What were you feeling about your chances after that initial stretch?

SPEAKER_06 9:02

Didn't really think about it, Chris. Just wanted to be the best I could be. I'm serious. I I I I just wanted to go out and do what I could for my team. I mean, my whole thing at that time, or our whole thing as a team at that time, was to win a Big Ten championship, was to win a championship, get a chance to go out uh to the Rose Bowl. And uh that year, I remember uh before the season started, I think uh there were some who predicted that we'd lose three of our first four games uh because of those uh teams uh that you talked about. Uh you know, Michigan State, who had beaten us the year before, uh Penn State uh obviously always has a great uh football team. Uh and uh uh UCLA uh they uh were a strong uh football team. And North Carolina uh was no slouch either. I mean, so all those teams uh were doggone good. And so there were people who thought would we we'd lose three of our first four games, and we wanted to make sure that that didn't happen. So as a team, we went out uh to play the best football we could and and ended up playing uh pretty doggone good games against all those uh teams uh early in our season. But that that those were great accomplishments to win uh those particular football games.

SPEAKER_04 10:13

Let's talk about fullback Pete Johnson. Uh he uh scored 25 touchdowns that year. Did you ever think that he was maybe taking some of your touchdowns away that that might have helped you get the second highsman?

SPEAKER_06 10:23

I knew the system that I played in. The system that I played in, our fullback was going to be the leading touchdown getter every year. And if you look back over the years, you'll see that Pete Johnson uh he he he was uh uh had the most touchdowns, leading touchdown score, uh Champ Henson, leading touchdown score. Uh my job was to move the ball up and down the field. Uh and uh we get inside uh the 10-yard line or or we get uh on goal line. Uh you know, my job was to block. Uh I just tried to do my job. And those guys did their job for me, you know, when we were in the middle of the field moving the football. So, you know, we all had our jobs to do, and and that's what we tried to do. And it was a successful uh formula uh for us. Uh Pete was a fantastic fullback. You know, I was fortunate. I mean, when I look at my career at Ohio State and my time at Ohio State, hey, uh it couldn't have been any better. You know, I always say uh that I was at the right place at the right time with the right people uh to make the possibility of winning a Heisman Trophy possible. And I was fortunate enough to get two uh because of being in the right place at the right time with the right people. And I'm talking about my coaches, I'm talking about the players I played with, uh, that offensive uh team that we had, our backfield, Pete Johnson, Cornelius Green, Brian Bashnickel. Uh uh we had great chemistry and and we played extremely uh well together. And and to do what we did, you had to have a great offensive line. And I was very fortunate every year during my time at Ohio State to have a great offensive line.

SPEAKER_04 11:58

I can imagine there was a lot of pressure that you were feeling as you headed into November of 1975, both on the team level and on the individual level. But you guys were doing great. You guys were unfeated, you'd had a good season, and you had worked your butt off, and now you got to the point where it was time for the Heisman to be decided, and then you finally got that call. It must have been an amazing feeling of relief to win that second Heisman and to know that all the work you'd put into it had really paid off.

SPEAKER_06 12:31

Well, at that time, I mean, I I felt that we had a very successful uh season uh as a team. Uh and and you know, again, I I left it up uh to the good Lord up above because uh you know it was out of my control. I mean, I didn't vote. I mean, all I could do is is uh be the best football player that I could be. And if it was meant for me to win it, uh it would happen. If it wasn't, I wouldn't win it.

SPEAKER_04 12:56

Uh and uh well you could vote. You had you had a vote, right?

SPEAKER_06 13:00

No, I didn't vote at that time. I I was still playing. And uh, you know, maybe I could, but uh I didn't know it. And I didn't vote. Right. Yeah, and I did not vote. So uh uh I did not vote. So yeah, I mean I I I I left it up uh pretty much uh to the voters. But again, you know, I I I kind of got it out of my mind and and you know left it up to uh all the voters to uh vote for who they thought uh would be that player. But I must say uh that uh that year, that competition, uh those players, all of those guys. I mean, I love Joe Washington, uh, you know, I I love Tony Dorsett, uh, and and and Chuck Munts and I had good relationships. So uh, you know, Ricky Bell, I mean, all those guys were guys that I I I admired, loved to watch them play, love uh to watch them run. So uh, you know, if I didn't win it, you know, I wasn't gonna feel bad about it or anything because I know that I gave it my very, very, very shot. But if any of those guys would have won it, uh I'd have been happy uh for them as well, because uh they are are out were outstanding football players, great football players if you if you really uh want to call it what it is. They were great football players, and I enjoyed uh uh watching them enjoy playing during the time that they played.

SPEAKER_04 14:17

Now, if you had voted that season, and excluding yourself, who would you have voted for or who would you have put on your ballot?

SPEAKER_06 14:24

Well, you get you uh you get uh about uh three places to vote for. Uh I'll probably uh I don't know, I don't know how how I'd have done it, but uh Joe Washington would have been in there, uh and and and probably Chuck Muncie and and Tony I I can get couldn't get four votes, but uh those guys would have been in there, no question, because they were uh excellent.

SPEAKER_04 14:47

So there must have been something in the water in the 1975-76 uh school year for the Big Ten because you won your second Heisman in the fall, and then in the spring, Indiana basketball won uh the national title, they went undefeated, and they're the last basketball team in college to go undefeated. And so even today, whenever the last team that is undefeated uh in a season loses their game, some of Bobby Knight's ex-players call them up and and congratulate him. So I was wondering if if there's a little bit of that with you. Like, do some of your ex-teammates say, uh, hey, you survived it, like for instance, when Lamar Jackson didn't win again, did they say, hey, you survived another round, you're still the only one? Does that happen? Yeah, I do get in these circles.

SPEAKER_06 15:31

I do get calls uh like that, Chris. Uh you know, people, you know, family certainly uh wants to remain that way, but it doesn't bother me. Man, it really doesn't bother me because you know uh I was blessed to win it twice, so I know uh if I can do it, somebody else uh can do it as well. So uh you know, I don't I don't let that kind of thing uh bother me. I'm uh I'm happy uh for whoever uh wins the Heisman Trophy because it is a fabulous award. It's an award that changes your life. And uh uh I'm I'm really happy uh for uh whoever wins uh the Heisman.

SPEAKER_04 16:08

So you had the four guys before you came along, and then you have had ten guys after you who've tried to win uh that second Heisman, and now Caleb Williams of USC is the 11th player after you, fifteenth overall to try to duplicate your feat. What do you think he has to do to win the Heisman this year?

SPEAKER_06 16:27

Well, I think he has to uh make sure that uh he gets out of his mind without worrying about the Heisman. I I I I don't think he can spend his time worrying about the Heisman. I think he needs to concentrate on being the best football player that he could be uh at USC, uh making sure that he's doing all the things that he needs to do to keep uh his teammates uh pumped up. Uh because you don't win a Heisman as uh an individual. You you really win it uh as a team. I mean you can't win it by yourself. You need those teammates, you need those guys uh working hard, uh making sure that uh they're playing the best football that they can play. And if you're the guy in that offense that shines in uh you're gonna get uh the accolades uh that you deserve to get. Uh but I I don't think he can worry about uh winning the Heisman Trophy. I think he just has to worry about being the best player that he could be and being the best teammate he can be to his uh teammates and making sure that he helps him to be the best team as a whole that they can be.

SPEAKER_04 17:29

He's one of the few guys who publicly professed wanting to win the second Heisman. I think maybe there's a little bit of sense of people want to downplay the idea of going for two, and maybe he's embracing that. Do you do you like that approach or do you think it's better to take the other approach?

SPEAKER_06 17:44

Well, I I I take I think you know, each individual approaches it uh the way that helps them. I mean, uh that might motivate him uh to play even harder, and if that does and it works for him, uh then that's that's just fine. Uh but uh from my standpoint, I try not to worry about it. And it's hard not to worry about it, don't get me wrong. I mean it's not something that's easy to do. Um, but I try to put it out of my mind and just concentrate on uh being the best that I could be for my teammates and and and for our team, because I wanted more than anything uh to be uh a Big Ten champion uh for the fourth year. And uh that was what was most and important to me. And if I won the Heisman trophy, uh then uh so be it. Uh and then that's great. Uh but as I told you earlier, you know, going into that season, during the offseason, deep down in my mind, you know, my thoughts were hey, to be uh better than I was the year before, at least the same as I was the year before, I need to do an Heisman. Well, that was more of a distraction than anything. So I had to get that distraction out of my mind and just concentrate on being uh the best player that I could be and being the best I can be for our football team. That's what was most important to me. And uh lo and behold, uh the good Lord uh blessed me and and gave me a second Heisman trophy. And uh I'm so very thankful for that.

SPEAKER_04 19:13

Well, you've been a tremendous ambassador for the Heisman Trophy over the years. Just a few more questions for you. Kind of curious, where do you keep your two Heisman trophies?

SPEAKER_06 19:22

Well, I've got one here uh with me, not right here where I'm I'm sitting, and uh I've got one uh at the Ohio State University uh in the student union. Uh the ballroom in the student union is named in in my honor, and uh I have one of those trophies uh sitting in the ballroom where people can can view it as they come to the student union.

SPEAKER_04 19:43

What's your favorite Heisman Trophy moment by someone other than yourself?

SPEAKER_06 19:48

By someone other than myself. I don't know that I'll call it my favorite, uh, but uh the Heisman moment I think uh uh mostly is uh uh when when when when when uh Desmond Howard uh struck the poles uh in the end zone, it would have been Hello Heisman. Yeah, yeah, and uh 19 had to be 1991. I remember that because I didn't happen to go to that game. I was at home. Uh my youngest son was was born uh that weekend, but uh uh when Desmond scored that touchdown and then struck the Heisner Pose. Uh that that's one that sticks out uh in my mind. And uh, you know, it's it's shown all the time you still see that. Uh but uh I I I I I I I thought that was uh uh kind of actually kind of neat. I mean, I know it was against Ohio State and it's it's it I I would have never done that, but committing sacrilege. Yeah, yeah. But but the fact that he did that, it showed me that he had a lot of confidence that uh you know he was gonna win that award, and he did.

SPEAKER_04 20:58

So going back to your junior year, when did you first realize that you were probably going to win the Heisman?

SPEAKER_06 21:04

During my junior year, I never realized uh that I would uh uh was going to win the Heisman. Uh it was one of those things where I went through the season. Uh you know, my sophomore year I had finished fifth in the Heisman voting. Uh so I I knew that uh you know people were aware of me. Uh but again I just went into the season uh uh uh to win a championship. Uh that's what it was all about. Uh and I was just a junior, so you know, even if you you didn't win as a junior, you still uh have another year. Uh but I did not focus my mind on winning uh the Heisman Trophy. Uh winning championships was important to me. And uh winning the Heisman Trophy uh was a result of being on some great teams uh that had great seasons and uh won uh Big Ten championships. So uh, you know I I wasn't thinking about winning the Heisman Trophy as a junior. I I felt that I was uh in that area being uh one of the good running backs that year, uh one of the top running backs that year. But you know I wasn't thinking win the Heisman Trophy. That that just wasn't something I would think of. That's not how I approached uh the season or how I approached uh the game. Uh I approached the game as being the best I could be during that game, and uh being the best team that we could possibly be at the end of that season and getting that opportunity to win a Big Ten championship and go to the Rose Bowl. Uh those were the things that uh we shot for uh as a team.

SPEAKER_04 22:43

You were in the first freshman class that was eligible, right? Absolutely. 1972. 1972.

SPEAKER_06 22:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 22:48

You've talked about being in the right place at the right time. Was that one of those things that was right place, right time, in the sense that like you had this freshman year to sort of build up your momentum a little bit and get your name out there. Do you think you would have won two Heisman's if if it had been under the old system with freshman teams?

SPEAKER_06 23:06

Huh. Chris, I never really thought about it uh that way. Uh because, you know, my freshman year, we were all eligible. Uh but that might have made a difference. Uh you you you never know because I don't know that uh if I'd have gone into my uh sophomore year uh that uh you know I would have ended up finishing fifth uh in the voting uh as a sophomore being the first year uh that uh I had the opportunity uh to play uh on the bars. I don't know that that would have been the case. Uh but uh it could have been the case because when you look at it now, uh you see freshmen uh finishing high uh in the voting. I mean, freshmen uh seem to uh do well and they seem to uh get uh a lot of votes uh in the Heisman. Uh but I don't know that that happened back then, but it would have been a possibility.

SPEAKER_04 24:02

Who do you think should have won the Heisman that didn't?

SPEAKER_06 24:05

Oh man. Who do I think should have won the Heisman that didn't? Uh I can't give you an answer to that because I tell you what, all the guys that won the Heisman, in my opinion, deserved to win uh the Heisman Trophy.

SPEAKER_04 24:18

Um who's the toughest player you ever played against and why?

SPEAKER_06 24:22

Uh the toughest player I ever played against. Uh in college football, I have to I'd I'd have to go as a team. Uh I don't want to say uh an individual player, uh, but as a team, uh I always uh came out of those uh games against Michigan uh pretty bruised up. Uh those guys uh were very, very physical. Every game that I played against them uh was a very, very physical game. And uh there were times that I thought after those games, I'm glad that uh we don't have uh a game the next week because on a couple occasions uh I would not have been able to play because those games were so physical.

SPEAKER_04 25:08

You're obviously one of the most famous players in college football history. Where's the strangest place that you've ever been recognized as a Heisman Trophy winner? You know, was it you know maybe you were on vacation in Italy somewhere or or you're wash washing your hands in McDonald's or something, and someone said, Hey, that's Archer. Like where where was this w where did you least expect to be recognized and and and someone found you?

SPEAKER_06 25:30

Uh I would say uh I I ran the alumni association for House Beat, and uh we were over in England, and uh uh we were at uh a a play in England, and uh I was recognized uh by some folks, and that probably was a place that I was not expecting uh to be uh recognized. Uh but we were watching uh a play and uh people say oh. I said, I owe. And they said, Aren't you gripping? And uh that was uh uh kind of special, actually. It's kind of special being out of the country. And I and I'm not a I'm not I'm not a big guy. I mean, so yeah, you you wouldn't recognize me because of my size or anything, or think anything special because I'm only 5'8, and uh so it's not something that really stands out. Uh so when somebody recognized you with that being the case, then you know they must know something about Ohio State or know something uh about football.

SPEAKER_04 26:36

There you have it, folks. That's the two-time Heisman Trophy winner Archie Griffin of the Ohio State University. Thanks for taking the time to come on the show. We had a great time talking with you. We hope to see you again soon and wish you good health.

SPEAKER_06 26:49

Well, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_04 26:52

Take an even deeper dive into Heisman lore by going to Heisman.com, home to all things Heisman, including news, bios, and the latest on all the winners, plus updates on the Heisman Trophy Trust and its charitable mission. It's the A to Z for Everything Heisman, from Alan Amici to Danny Werfel. We really need a Heisman winner whose name begins with Z. Before we move on to the rest of the show, we're gonna take the time to commemorate two members of the Heisman fraternity who have passed away in recent months. Just recently, we lost 1947 Heisman winner Johnny Lujak of Notre Dame. He was the oldest living Heisman winner at age 98. He died in July in Naples, Florida. And in early January, 1979 winner and USC Trojan Charles White lost his battle with cancer. He was 64. Lujack was one of Notre Dame's all-time early greats, and he won the school's second Heisman Trophy in 1947 after leading the fighting Irish to a 9-0 season as a senior. He threw for 777 yards and ran for 139 yards in his Heisman-winning season, leading the Irish to a national championship for the third time after also doing so in 1943 and 1946. Now remember, Blue Jack served in the US Navy during World War II for nearly three years between that 1943 title and the one in 1946. And while he was gone, Army won back-to-back titles in 1944 and 1945, led by West Point's own Heisman legends, Mr. Inside and Mr. Outside, Doc Blanchard and Glenn Davis. Back with the average to 1946, Blue Jack's number two Notre Dame team squared off against top-ranked Army in front of about 75,000 at Yankee Stadium in a game that really caught the nation's attention. The game famously finished in a 0-0 tie, with Blue Jack making a game-saving tackle, crossing the entire field in the process to stop Blanchard from scoring. It was the stuff of legends. Charles White was a legendary figure for the Trojans in his own right. The third Heisman-winning tailback from USD following Mike Garrett and O.J. Simpson, White was a powerful and prolific running back. He rushed for 6,245 yards during his four-year career as a Trojan, still the school record. He led USD to a share of the 1978 national title thanks to a huge junior year when he rushed for 1,760 yards and 13 touchdowns. He was the Heisman's favorite entering the 1979 season, and he lived up to every bit of those expectations. Despite missing about a game and a half due to injuries, he led the nation in rushing with 1,803 yards and 18 scores as the Trojans finished 10-0-1 on the year. He had four 200-yard efforts during the regular season and had three more games where he rushed for at least 185. In the last 10 games of the season, he averaged 201 yards per game. You might recall, Billy Sims of Oklahoma was the defending Heisman winner that year, but White left no doubt about the vote. With Sims finishing second, White capped his brilliant USD career with one of the greatest performances in bowl history, rushing for 247 yards on 39 carries in a dramatic 1716 victory over Ohio State in the Rose Bowl. His diving touchdown with a minute 32 to play was the deciding score. The Heisman Trust mourns the loss of Charles White and Johnny Lujak. They will be missed. Hey college football fans, your name doesn't need to be Nick Sabin or Marcus Allen or Reese Davis to attend the Heisman Gala. That's the annual celebration in New York to honor the Heisman Trophy winner the day after he's announced. Tickets to the gala are open to the public and will go on sale soon. So be sure to keep checking at Heisman.com for information on how to secure your seat and witness Heisman history. While your favorite college team puts the finishing touches on its fall camp and the band prepares its halftime show, football on Friday nights has already kicked off. Crucial to the origin story of every Heisman winner is the time he spent at high school. High schools from 27 states plus the District of Columbia have produced Heisman Trophy winners. Recently, we talked to representatives from four of those high schools, and one thing we discovered is that the impact of the Heisman upon these schools and these communities can last for years, if not decades. Take, for example, the most recent high school to produce a Heisman Trophy winner, Gonzaga College High in the Washington, D.C. area. But that's not USC's fight song, and that's not his Trojan teammates singing along with him. What you heard was Williams leading his prep alma mater Gonzaga College High School in their fight song during a visit to the Washington, D.C. area this past May. He had returned to his high school campus to launch an East Coast branch of his Caleb Cares Foundation, an organization devoted to curbing bullying. The school celebrated Williams' return with a pep rally and retired his number 18 jersey. But Williams was already a larger-than-life figure at Gonzaga. As you might expect, him winning the Heisman was a thrill for the entire school. Members of the 2023 senior class knew Williams for two years when they were freshmen and sophomores. So when they gathered together to watch the Heisman ceremony last December, the outcome was personal for many. For long time Gonzaga head football coach Randy Trivers, this new connection with the Heisman Trophy goes even deeper. That someone from his program is now a member of the most prestigious fraternity in sports is something he can use to motivate current and future players to dream big.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

I think it gives gives young men in the program of you know something to something to shoot for. There's only 88 Heisman Trophy winners, so it's not like you try to fool, fool young men and say, hey, you're the next Heisman trophy winner, necessarily, but just the spirit of being able to give the right type of effort, you know, having goals, having a plan uh to achieve those goals, and then and then having the courage to go go get it, you know, to go execute and uh and and and try your best. I think that's the spirit of of you know Caleb Williams and and winning the Heisman. Just uh hey you you you you have a dream, let's go chase it, and uh and have the courage to do it and then and then the the fortitude to you know when when challenged, just keep keep going after it.

SPEAKER_04 33:35

As much as his play on the football field serves as a great example to follow, the work by Williams off the field aligns well with the Gonzaga's values.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

Him coming back, it was awesome for as you said, the way the jersey retirement, it's the first jersey in the history of you know, two hundred and two years of Gonzaga College High School and and um over a hundred years of playing football. Uh the first jersey uh he wore number eighteen here to be retired. Uh but the the the cool thing is what he's doing, you know, using his fame as a platform uh to to really be a great man for others, you know, so it's a great thing for us to see.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

It is a indeed a pleasure and an honor for me to be able to announce the 43rd recipient of the uh Heisman Trophy, and it goes to Earl Campbell of the University of Texas.

SPEAKER_04 34:53

The voice you just heard announcing the winner of the 1977 Heisman was Jay Berwanger from the Dubuque High class of 1932. In 1935, he won what was then called the Downtown Athletic Club Trophy while playing for the University of Chicago. A year later, the award was renamed after the late John Heisman. For decades, Berwanger's time at Dubuque High was the stuff of legend. His was a name from the distant past that perhaps didn't resonate with current generations. But in 2013, the high school erected a statue of Berwanger that sits on a four-foot stand adjacent to its football field. Now, football players at the school tap the statue's foot each day on the way to practice.

SPEAKER_07 35:30

If they're there competing on Balsell Field, they'll go over to the statue on their way to the locker room, uh, they'll they'll swipe the foot. Um so eventually we're expecting the that area to be a little shinier than the rest of the rest of the statue to say the least.

SPEAKER_04 35:43

That was Brent Cook, the assistant principal in charge of athletics at Dubuque, which also houses a copy of Berwanger's first Heisman. Though he's not from Dubuque himself, he's worked at the school for 11 years and sees the trophy as a symbol for the school, particularly its student athletes.

SPEAKER_07 35:56

I think like a lot of small towns across the Midwest, you're not from that town unless you were born here. So I'm not sure if I'll ever be uh from a Dubucher's point of view, a Debuker, but uh for 11 years I've been here. But prior to that, um, probably just a few years before I came here, I I didn't know about Jay Burwanger myself. So um the fact that we have uh the very first trophy sitting in our hallway um is is is a great thing and and a great way to t teach our kids about our history and and not only history about our own school and people that were a part of it, but uh history across the country with the Heisman Trophy.

SPEAKER_04 36:31

When Cook says across the country, he's not exaggerating.

SPEAKER_07 36:34

We had a gentleman just kind of cold call our school uh several years ago before COVID. Um he said he was in the area and wanted to come heard that we had this statue, uh and so he wanted to come and see it. And uh he was from Georgia, I think. Uh a retired military person. And basically he and his buddies, but he in particular, had made it a point to come through and um he he made it a point to go see where all the Heisman trophy uh players were or statues for those people. And on his in his trip he he drove over to Dubuque and so yeah, we we made it a point to go outside, and and I think at the time I'm not sure if he knew we had the the actual Heisman inside. And so we met outside, we talked, and um it was a good it was a good time, and then I said, Well, let's because I'm gonna take some pictures here. I said, Well, go take let's take some pictures, but I said we'll do one better, we're gonna go inside and I'll get the trophy out for you. And he's like, Well I said, Yeah, we're gonna go get the trophy out of the trophy case. And so we took some pictures and he took a picture, you know, holding it, and uh and like a lot of people that's 27 pounds, and that that that's a heavy statue. But it turned out to be one of those things that uh as a reminder to me that's that's surprising that other people across the nation would would know about uh Jay Burwanger, know about his situation and and wanna want to come take a part of that.

SPEAKER_04 38:04

If that gentleman were to journey to Modern Day High School in Santa Ana, California, he'd have the opportunity to take selfies with three different Heisman trophies. That's because a record three Heisman Trophy winners have come through Modern Day. Notre Dame's John Hewart was the first former monarch to win the Heisman in 1964. He was joined in 2004 by USC's Matt Leinert, and then finally Alabama's Bryce Young won it in 2021. Former NFL offensive lineman Kyle Holmes is a first-year associate head coach at Modern Day. He's an alum at the school, the class of 2008. His older brother Alex was a teammate of Leinertz at USC when he won the Heisman, and College starred at USC as well. So he's used to being surrounded by Heisman trophies.

SPEAKER_08 38:41

Well, we have uh Heisman Lane, which I was walking down earlier today. Um, you know, which is it's a part of our campus that kind of is the line between where a lot of the athletics begin and then where a lot of the classrooms are. Um it's very visible. It's uh something that every student here knows about, walks every day, sees it, um, you know, sees the banners uh that they have uh on the lamppost, and of course the street signage that says Heisman Heisman Lane. As well, when you walk into the the gym, the basketball gym, there's there are cabinets displaying uh John and Matt's Heisman's, and then uh another space recognizing Bryce's accomplishment as well. It's something the school is very proud of. It would be a really impressive feat if you came to Modern Day for even a couple weeks or a couple hours, honestly, and didn't recognize uh or at least learn about what the Heisman is.

SPEAKER_04 39:38

Modern Day's Heisman span the course of 60 years, with Hewart graduating from the school in 1961, and then 40 years later, Lanert graduated in 2001. 19 years after that, Bryce Young was from the class of 2020. So it's no wonder their accomplishments still loom large over the school.

SPEAKER_08 39:54

The level of success that's been established here and is has come to be expected is something that has to motivate you. Um, and you have to be mindful of it in the sense that you know there are expectations and there are there is a legacy that we need to live up to.

SPEAKER_04 40:12

Modern day's football program is more than just the three Heisman trophies. The school can claim more players who have gone on to the NFL than many colleges can. But for first year head coach Frank McManus, the Heisman is woven tightly within the monarch's fabric.

SPEAKER_05 40:24

Kids are widely keen and understand the significance, obviously, of winning uh the Heisman. And now uh everyone comes in and dreams about the opportunity to possibly um be the next guy. I mean when we're when we meet with uh colleges for players, there's there's always the thought that this could be the next guy. We were just talking to a recruiter the other day in a college that was in here, talking about one of our players that he thought potentially could be the next guy. So like I said, that is something that's always in the back of the minds of all the players that come in here. And it and in all honesty, I sometimes find myself thinking going, could this be a guy? Could this be that next guy? You know, so it's it's uh the players, I think the coaches, I think the modern-day community and faculty is always aware of that there's always the potential for someone uh to come out of the school and win that award.

SPEAKER_04 41:16

Young was the number one pick in the 2023 NFL draft, and he'll soon make his pro debut with the Carolina Panthers. Despite his busy schedule, Frank says he's been a big presence around the school.

SPEAKER_05 41:26

Bryce comes back uh regularly, whether it's to to game Friday night games, this week we'll this year we'll have some Saturday games. Bryce has come out to our youth passing league seven-on-seven games, he and his his family just to just to say hi and and chop it up with guys, with young guys, seventh and eighth graders. So uh having a Heisman and a number one pick to come out to your field and talk to the youth like that uh is an incredible opportunity. And obviously, when he comes out to the field and and gets a chance to see some of the guys uh that we currently have on our on our varsity field, it's always a kind of a treat.

SPEAKER_04 42:03

The modern day Heisman connection extends throughout the generations. Leinart's son Cole is following in his dad's footsteps as a quarterback at Modern Day, but Matt has been a regular around the school for some time.

SPEAKER_05 42:13

Obviously, with Matt is his uh his younger son, his uh oldest son is out here uh playing quarterback, so he gets a chance to come out and and see the practices and and again chop it up a little bit with the kids and and talk some shop and just have some fun. I mean, they get to see the the kids get to see these guys in another light uh on a personal level, which is always great because I mean a lot of times you get to see these guys on TV and and the greatness that they had. But um but what makes them so great is that their ability to kind of connect and talk with the kids uh on a personal level. Uh John Hewart uh Hewart is also a great, a great man. I've had a chance to see him several times on campus. Um and his family is still uh he's got his young his I think it's his youngest grandson is starting here as a freshman this year, uh as well. So there's always an opportunity to see the Hewitt family as well. So that's I think that's what that kind of separates uh modern day from a lot of other schools is the players of the past come back, um they engage and speak with not only the football team but also the modern day community. And so like imagine being able to be a high school kid and and and be able to see and talk to um guys that have excelled personally and achieve some of the great the the with the greatest honor of of college football and they're just strolling around campus. I mean it's uh it's quite a yeah, it's a it's a unique opportunity. And I think that's what makes modern day special and different and differentiates itself from any other public or private school in America is that there's that kind of humility where you could be literally standing next to a Heisman and just talking and you wouldn't even know it.

SPEAKER_04 43:52

Sitting in his office in Dallas, Woodrow Wilson High School head football coach John Fish angles for a just out of reach school yearbook presents. Almost 90 years ago. In it, a young Davy O'Brien is listed among the seniors.

SPEAKER_03 44:04

Let's see. This is from the class of 19, the class of 1934. And Davey's in here, and it's really cool. And he signed the yearbook from when he was in high school. And it's so cool to just look back, and I mean, here's this, this just little, you know, you wouldn't notice him, you know, anywhere if you're flipping those pages, and then you see his name and his signature, and it's written like a high school kid would write his signature. And it's like, man, here is this guy who the best college quarterback in the country that could do awards named after him. He did all these great things at TCU, uh, you know, lived this amazing life, and man, he went to the same high school. I'm literally holding the year very yearbook that he signed.

SPEAKER_04 44:49

Woodrow Wilson is not only home to 1938 Heisman winner Davy O'Brien of TCU, but also to 1987 winner Tim Brown out of Notre Dame. No other public high school in the country has more Heisman winners. The school is part of Dallas's huge independent school district, which includes twenty-two high schools that all play football. And in a state where Friday Night Lights was born, it can be hard to stand out. While the school does count rock and roll great Steve Miller and Z Z top bassist Dusty Hill among its alumni, not to mention Mariano Martinez, the inventor of the frozen margarita machine, Fish needed a different angle. But just before starting his first season at Wilson in 2022, he found it.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

And um, so from day one, it's it's been all about Heisman High. It's been all about building on who's the next one that's that it's gonna be. You know, there there's you know, hopefully there's a second grader sitting at Lakewood Elementary right now waiting, you know, that's gonna come through here and be the next one, you know. And so I I think that's something that for us it's just been it sets us apart. And so if we can we can instill that in our kids and just continue that mindset of being, you know, having a standard that's higher than those around us, um, and always has been and we'll continue to add to it, man, it makes us better.

SPEAKER_04 46:43

And Fish's players have bought in.

SPEAKER_03 46:45

They are all in on it. You know, I think again, when you're when you're in the business of kids, you know, you set expectations and kids want to meet them. And I think it's the same thing with the personality that you take on as a program. The kids, you know, especially when you you have some success and the kids can see the you know, something that is they can grasp. It's not it's not a slogan, it's not something that's just kind of like made up and you just kind of go with it. You know, it's real. It's something they see. They walk the hallways and they see the the the walls and they see the the trophies and they see the pictures and they're like, no, this is real. They walked the same high schools you walked, they they they went to the same classrooms you go to and you know look at what they became. And so I think it it for our kids it's it it's more than just uh a mantra, it's something that they they live out because they get to experience the same things that those guys did.

SPEAKER_04 47:38

Wilson's original building dates back almost a century, but as facilities have been updated, there's now a lobby dedicated to both O'Brien and Brown. Through the years, Brown, who comes from the class of nineteen eighty-four, has been very active in the Wilson community, and his annual golf tournament supports the school's booster club.

SPEAKER_03 47:55

Really, I mean, in all honesty, funds uh so much of our athletic programs here on campus just by that one golf tournament that he puts on and sponsors for us every single year. Um he comes out and plays in it. Um, you know, I've gotten to spend some time with him at that and just getting to talk to him and get to know him. And um he's such a good guy and just does so much for us that nobody sees. And that's that's the cool thing about Tim. He's not he he he he doesn't want a ton of attention. He isn't asking for, you know, he's not even asking for a thank you. He does it because he cares and he does it because it matters to him this next day, you know, each next generation that comes to the school of being able to impact them in some way, and he does such a great job of supporting us with that.

SPEAKER_04 48:36

Who knows? That support may one day propel another Woodrow Wilson Wildcat to the Heisman.

SPEAKER_03 48:41

Um, you never know. You know, when Tim Brown was in high school and was doing all that he was doing at receiver, you know, no one probably thought that he was gonna be the Heisman trophy winner. So you just don't know. And I think that's kind of cool for our kids, especially our young kids that you know are still developing. Maybe it's a seventh grader that's scrawny and maybe a little behind. You know, you don't know what that kid's gonna be when he's 21, 22 years old, you know what they're gonna develop into. And so uh we use that as a tool, you know, for all kids to say, man, you just don't know, you know, and so keep buying in, keep keep working, and you know, maybe one day you'll be holding that trophy.

SPEAKER_06 49:19

This is Archie Griffin, 1974, 1975's Heisman Trophy winner, and you're listening to the official Heisman Podcast.

SPEAKER_04 49:27

Now it's time to check in with one of our Heisman Trophy trustees, Jim Corcoran. Jim, thanks for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

Thanks very much. It's great to be here, Chris.

SPEAKER_04 49:35

So can you share with our listeners a little bit about the trust and what it does?

SPEAKER_01 49:38

I sure can. Uh first of all, it's an honor to be a trustee. There's 11 of us, uh, and we continue to expand over time. But you know, our job is to to our mission basically is to grow the legacy and preserve the integrity of the Heisman Trophy. And that's done in a couple different ways. As everyone knows here, uh, you know, it's it's given out to the most outstanding college football player in the United States. Um and once that trophy is given out, uh, we are a charitable trust, and we support uh both youth development programs around the country uh as well as a Heisman High School Scholarship Program. And we also have a Heisman Humanitarian Award we give out every year. So our job as trustees is to not only uh protect the trophy, but to grow it and find ways that we can give our money away to youth development around the country.

SPEAKER_04 50:38

I'm looking at your mission statement right now. It says, quote, our goal is to harness the power of the Heisman Trophy's legacy of athletic excellence to positively impact our nation's youth and provide more equitable opportunities for underserved communities. So that sounds like a pretty ambitious undertaking. So I'm wondering how you and your fellow trustees uh achieved that goal.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Well, you know, it's you know, since I've been on the trust since uh 2001, uh that you know, after the downtown athletic club uh closed up after 9-11, um we put the put the trophy in trust and created this 501c3. So over that time frame, uh we've given out more than uh probably 20, 22, 22 million dollars to different charities around the country, focused primarily early on in the tri-state area, but now we've uh expanded to to Dallas and Atlanta and to Texas and to some other locations. Um the trust works with New York Community Trust. Uh they're right uh located right here in Manhattan, and we talk to them, and and uh when you go in and you want to request a grant from the Heisman, you go in and fill out some forms on the website. Uh, and it comes up to New York Community Trust and they vet those grants for us. Uh they make visits, uh, they go out and learn about the programs, find out about the budgets and what they're trying to accomplish, how many kids they're affecting. Uh and then they come back and give us reports on these are 50 different grants we received the last month, and here are six of them that we feel meet your mission. Uh, and then we go about deciding how much money we're going to give them. So it's a it's a process. Uh, and I've been doing this for a long time. Uh, when you give away money in a charity, uh, there's work to be done because uh, you know, the last thing I'm sure people out there who who like to give to foundations, they want their money to get results. They don't want it to go to you know paying staff members or or budget constraints or things like that. So uh, you know, it's it's a it's a great relationship we have with New York Community Trust, and we're expanding across the country. So I think more and more, more and more youth development programs are gonna have the opportunity to request request grants uh from the Heisman Trophy.

SPEAKER_04 53:08

Anyone interested in applying for a charitable donation can go to Heisman.com. Is that correct? Under the charities tab?

SPEAKER_01 53:14

Yes, you can. Sure can. And uh there's a window that you have to do it between. Uh, but yeah, you can go on there and it's looked at and uh and then it's vetted. Uh and uh like I said, I think we've given to hundreds of charities in the last 20 some odd years that I've been with the trophy, and it's about $22 million of uh grants that we've given out.

SPEAKER_04 53:38

What about the rest of the trustees? Can you tell us a little bit about their backgrounds and how they became trustees?

SPEAKER_01 53:44

Backgrounds are all different. Um athletes, no athletes on there, uh, but uh a combination of 11 of us, um, all different types of uh jobs. But it uh at one at some point they were members of the downtown athletic club uh and they wanted to be a part of the club and the trophy. So uh we meet uh monthly um and then we you know decide and talk about the things that are that are important to us, which are you know our our sponsors, uh uh how we maintain this money and how it's protected, it's invested, uh, and then obviously uh try to give it away to great causes that we feel uh are you know are dear or are dear to our hearts, as I would say, you know.

SPEAKER_04 54:38

You guys created the Heisman Humanitarian Award, which is a great award because it honors sports figures who are actively involved in the type of charity work that you guys also support. And it is an impressive list, a who's who of sports figures. And it's a diverse group as well with athletes, men and women from all sports. You've got uh ice skaters and basketball players and golfers, not just football players. So so I guess it just shows the power of the Heisman to be able to draw in such an impressive group of athletes.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

You know, we go out there and uh and we we search high and low in all different sports uh to find out who has really made a difference out there after their playing career, some even during their careers, but most of them are doing this after they're done. Um and you know, we go out there and we get bios on each one of them. Uh we try to we say very diversified. We've had, you know, Mia Hamm to Joey Cheeks, who ice skater in the Olympics, to Alan Page, uh the Minnesota Vikings defensive tackle. Um we've had a whole bunch across the board. So that that's a that can be tough, as you can imagine, right? Um you get 10 names in front of you, and you know you gotta pick who you'd like to be the humanitarian. Uh so we just do a voting process, three, two, one, pick your, and you know, and and over time we've had some really great, great uh humanitarians.

SPEAKER_04 56:13

Let's go back to the Heisman again. Once the award is given out in December, what's your next steps? At what point do you start looking at the next season?

SPEAKER_01 56:22

Uh, you know, after the, you know, it's a busy weekend, as you can imagine. Um, you've got uh uh uh the contenders come in Friday night with their families. We have a nice dinner. The television show uh presentation is on Saturday evening where you announce the winner. And then on uh Sunday we have the black tie dinner with about a thousand people uh to actually hand the winner the award. It's a it's a nice, it's a nice three days, but it's a lot of work. Um and after you're done, we give it about a week, and then we all get together and we write down what we liked, what we didn't like, what was good, what was not good, how can we make it better? Um make sure we all the former winners that were here got home safely. Did they have a did they have a good time when they were here? Is there anything new they would like to see? So we're kind of always upgrading uh a little bit. We've moved from place to place. I don't know if the fans out there know this, but after 9-11, we used to have the events all at the Downtown Athletic Club, and that closed right next to the World Trade Centers after 9-11. So we've over the last 20 some odd years, we've been at different locations. Uh and right now we are at the Time Warner building on Saturday night where we make the presentation. So the trustees are a little worn out by the uh by the end of the three days, but it's a it's a it's a good it's a good time to reflect on uh how are we going to make this better next year? Uh was the location right, uh, where was the transportation, you know, all the things that would go into making sure everyone's comfortable and enjoying themselves because you'd be surprised. Most of these contenders um have never been to New York before. So there's a lot of things to see and do, uh, whether it's going to a show during the day or going down to visit the uh 9-11 Memorial, a lot of things for them to do. So uh it's busy, but it's fun. Uh, and we just kind of circle up a month later just to make sure we, well, it's fresh in our minds, what could be better?

SPEAKER_04 58:42

For those of you who have not been to New York City during Heisman Weekend, I definitely recommend that one because New York City is not really a college football city. What happens though is that you get the Heisman Trophy winner who is the toast of the town for a couple days. And so it's pretty cool. You just have to avoid all those Santa Connors that uh also take over New York City that weekend. So, Jim, how did you become a Heisman Trophy trustee to the point where you're playing such a key role in one of college football's great traditions?

SPEAKER_01 59:09

Uh, when you first come up here and you work on Wall Street, uh, like everybody, you gotta find a place to go work out. And around the corner was the downtown athletic club. So I just happened to have joined the club uh as a as a young member. Uh, and then you know, that's where everybody goes at 4.05 after the markets close. And the downtown athletic club had been there since 1934, 1935, maybe even earlier. Uh, and uh over time I just got more and more involved with uh helping out with some of the events that we would have with the downtown athletic club. Uh and in 2001, the members voted me in as president. So uh it happened to be the year which 9-11 took place. Uh so we didn't get to stay in the building very long uh after 9-11. But uh, you know, when you become a member and then you become president, uh part of the role of being president is to uh announce the Heisman Trophy winner. So that's and so I did that, and then we formed a trust and I stayed on there. But uh, you're 100% right. I have a passion for sports. Uh uh these athletes are pretty incredible and they do a lot of good things. Uh, and as you can imagine, uh when when when they announce your name, Chris, and they announce you as winner of the Heisman Trophy. It's funny to look at a 21-year-old uh young man who thinks he just won an award, and his life has been changed forever because wherever he goes from that point on, you can ask anyone who won it. You are now you are the Heisman Trophy winner and 19, whatever, 2000, whatever, and uh it's just it'll stay with them, it'll change their lives forever, and it's really it's really fun to watch and be around.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:06

Yeah, there's no question that the title Heisman Trophy winner is one of the more powerful honorifics around, like former president or Academy Award winner or Nobel Prize winner. And that concludes part one of our interview with Heisman Trophy trustee Jim Corcoran. We'll play part two of the interview on a future episode. And next week, with a full slate of college football games on the horizon, we'll be having one of the best football players in the country stopping by for a chat. And who might that be, you wonder? You'll just have to come back next week to find out. The official Heisman Trophy podcast streams every Wednesday during the college football season and is hosted, co-produced, edited, and engineered by Chris Houston. Paul Goldberg is the executive producer and editor. Special shout out to Isaac Loencron, and big thanks to the Heisman Trophy Trust and its executive director, Rob Whalen, and associate director Tim Henning. The official Heisman Trophy podcast can be found on Spotify, Apple Music, and anywhere you listen to your favorite podcasts. You can also find clips of our show on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. Just go to at Heisman Trophy.