The Heisman Hopefuls Podcast
The Heisman Hopefuls Podcast, hosted by Heisman historian Chris Huston, features year round interviews with top Heisman contenders, insider stories from Heisman history, hard-hitting discussion of the latest college football news plus updates on the Heisman Trophy Trust’s charitable work. New episodes every Thursday. Follow @HeismanTrophy on all platforms and watch clips on YouTube and TikTok. Contact: pod@heisman.com
The Heisman Hopefuls Podcast
Notre Dame QB Sam Hartman
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Notre Dame senior quarterback Sam Hartman talks about making the move from Wake Forest to South Bend for his final collegiate season, what it was like to visit Dublin, Ireland for the season opener, and what inspired his signature bearded-look. In the second half of the show, 1987 Heisman Trophy winner Tim Brown of Notre Dame provides an in-depth look at his football journey, from playing in the marching band as a high school freshman, to spending countless hours in Lou Holtz's office, to pulling off two punt returns against Michigan State on his way to becoming the second receiver to win the Heisman.
The Heisman Hopefules Podcast streams every Thursday during the college football season and is hosted by Chris Huston. The pod is available on all streaming networks, including Spotify and Apple Music, and full videos of the show are available on YouTube, with clips on TikTok and Instagram.
Email us at pod@heisman.com for feedback and inquiries.
Welcome to the official high-reach movie podcast. And the winner is here's your host, Chris Houston.
SPEAKER_05Welcome to episode five of the official Heisman Trophy Podcast. I'm Chris Houston, and if you are a Notre Dame fan, you're really gonna love this show today. Later on in the episode, we have a lengthy discussion with 1987 Heisman Trophy winner and NFL Hall of Famer Tim Brown. And we're gonna lead things off with Sam Hartman, the quarterback for the Notre Dame Fighting Irish. Hartman came to Notre Dame from Wake Forest and he's off to a great start so far this year. And like everyone who comes on our show, he's one of the best football players in the entire country. But first, a little housekeeping, we have to talk about our trivia question from last week. The question was who was the first player to have his Heisman Trophy announcement made on live national television? And the answer is Marcus Allen in 1981. And the person who got that right was Mike Wilson out of Fresno, California. Congrats, Mike. We'll send that Heisman hat out to you right away. Now for this week's trivia question, name the three Heisman Trophy winners who were born outside the United States. If you think you know the answer to that one, just email us at pod at Heisman.com. That's pod at Heisman.com. And if you get the answer right, we'll send you a Heisman Trophy hat or duffel bag. Good luck. And now it's time to round up what's happening in the Heisman world.
SPEAKER_07It's the Heisman Relga, week three.
SPEAKER_05While week four on Saturday is bringing us a ridiculous amount of huge matchups, there are plenty of eye-catching performances from week three we need to highlight. And man, we are compelled to start with that epic Colorado Colorado State double overtime thriller that the Buffaloes won 43-35. Buffalo's quarterback Shadur Sanders threw for 348 yards and four touchdowns to help his team outlast their interstate rival. But the showstopper was the late 98-yard game time touchdown drive that Sanders orchestrated almost entirely through the air that culminated with this 45-yard touchdown strike to Jimmy Horn Jr. Sanders.
SPEAKER_07Downfield Get him in it.
SPEAKER_05Colorado's former Big 12 rival Oklahoma is on its own hot streak, improving to 3-0 after a 60-17 win over Tulsa. That saw quarterback Dylan Gabriel throw for 421 yards and five touchdowns. The Redshirts senior completed a gouty 28 of 31 throws for a completion percentage of 90.3, which was a school record by a single player. Gabriel likes the way the sooner's offense is progressing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, just as a unit, I think we did really well making a bunch of plays, uh turning, you know, kind of sort of passes in each other. That's why I think the player pretty good temptation is putting that all together beauty.
SPEAKER_05The lefty single caller has already passed for 1,332 yards in three games with 12 touchdowns. A little luck doesn't hurt, as this second quarter tipped pass fell into the hands of Jalen Polk, who scored on a 30-yard play. Daniels threw for 361 yards on 30 of 34 passing in two scores, the 88.2% completion percentage, an LSD record in games with at least 25 attempts. He also ran in the final two scores of the Tigers, including this one-yard scamper in the fourth quarter.
SPEAKER_07Daniels Hold gets three and picked in again.
SPEAKER_03Jason Daniels with his second rushing touchdown of the day.
SPEAKER_05His four rushing scores were the most ever in a game by a Syracuse quarterback. And in a Heisman-related fun fact, this gives Syracuse its first back-to-back 3-0 starts since it was led by Heisman winner Ernie Davis in the 1959 and 1960 seasons. Here's Schrader on his big game.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, the run game, the quarterback run game was there just the way they play their defense. A lot of man-to-man, so that with getting open, catching balls down the field, and then um I'd have a ton I'd have that. We knew I'd have a ton of lanes to run and pull the ball on. I probably did a little more than I probably should have, but I mean we got the job done, so.
SPEAKER_05Hey college football fans, tickets to the 2023 Heisman Trophy Dinner Gala are now on sale. The event takes place in New York City on Sunday, December 10th, the day after the Heisman Trophy ceremony. The guest of honor for the gala is the 2023 Heisman Trophy winner, as well as the 50th anniversary winner John Capoletti, the 25th anniversary winner Ricky Williams, and the 10th anniversary winner Jameis Winston. Plus, we'll also be honoring the 2023 Heisman Humanitarian Award winner. Just go to Heisman.com to purchase tickets and witness Heisman history. This episode's featured guest is off to a sizzling start this year. Through four games, he leads the country in touchdown passes with thirteen. He has 1,061 yards passing, and a passer rating of 217.81, which is third in the country, with no interceptions in his first 90 attempts. He plays quarterback at the University of Notre Dame, a very prominent position in Heisman lore. Nonetheless, he has a chance to become the first fighting Irish quarterback to be a Heisman finalist since 2006. So it's been a while. I had a chance to catch up with them last week after practice, amidst the sounds of a very busy athletic department in the background, and with my voice still a bit raspy from a cold I'm recovering from. Alright, Sam Hartman, University of Notre Dame, thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy Podcast.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate you guys having me.
SPEAKER_05So you're in your sixth year closing in on 14,000 career yards. Last year you had 3,701 yards, 38 touchdowns at Wake Forest, 120 career touchdowns, number 10 on the all-time NCAA chart. Can you walk us through uh how you made the decision to stay for your sixth year and do it all at Notre Dame?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I think uh I mean a big part of it is the University of Notre Dame, uh, and that kind of tagline and and that draw. Um, I mean, I think I wasn't a Notre Dame fan growing up, uh, but obviously knew the name, you know, seen the movie, Rudy, right, all the the fame and lore of of that, you know, iconic football brand. Um I think there was there was a lot of draw there. Um but I think the biggest thing um was I've playing as long as I played in the different teams I've been on. I s I've seen a lot of guys graduate with eligibility or declare to the NFL with eligibility left, whether it's three years, whether it's two years, whether it's a year. Um and then sadly they never play the game again. And and I I believe I can play in the NFL, I believe, um that I'll get my shot, but you never really know. I think uh sometimes you know people get uh an unlucky draw, they get to a place and you know it just doesn't work out, they get hurt. Um and I felt like the opportunity to continue to play college at um at Notre Dame and in the system that I'm playing in at the at the with the with the team that I've been blessed to be a part of was was an opportunity I couldn't pass up. And um I've been you know so grateful for that decision. And and again, I not every decision is gonna work out, um, as well as I feel like this one has worked out, and you know, there's a lot of chapters still we gotta complete and a lot of games still left to be played and memories to be made. And um I've I've just I've enjoyed every moment and it's not always been easy. Um and and the start was not definitely uh something that I anticipated, but um, you know, persevering and and pushing through and and the team uh that I I've been you know you know graciously you know accepted into is has been uh just incredible and and a humbling uh experience for me.
SPEAKER_05And you're talking about that the change of offensive coordinators uh when you got there?
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_05Okay. Uh so you're 24 years old and you've got a bunch of uh guys in some cases who are 18, 19. Uh, what's it like uh hanging out with guys who are five or six years younger with you than you?
SPEAKER_01Um it they they you know it's not the biggest difference. Um, you know, there's some young guys on the team, you're like, holy cow, or um, you know, you see kids walking across campus when I'm going to class, and you're like, dude, that kid looks like he's 12. Um, but again, I probably looked like that when I was, or I did look like that was a freshman. I was 170 pounds, soaking wet, and um no facial hair, no nothing. And um I think it's it's uh it's cool because you know, again, it's every football team is its own team, and um every every guy on the team is its own guy, and and you get to learn and and know and and play with some of the coolest individuals uh really in the world. And I think that's the the great thing about this this game we play is um you know the melting pot of a of a locker room is just is iconic in its own self and it's the only real place in the world where I feel like it's that many people coming together um from so many different backgrounds and and executing at a high level and a really high pressured situation. Um and and the relationships go you know way beyond ball. And and you know, that I've been in now I'll coming up on my third wedding um after this season. I've I've been a groomsman in two, I'll be a groomsman in two and just in one um and the other. And it again, those those are those moments where like yeah, winning football games and be a part of of a really high-level football team is great, but um those things off the field are stuff as you as I get older, right? As I'm the old man, is is stuff that you kind of try and tell those freshmen, like, listen, like your roommate right now is gonna be the guy you're you're telling, hey brother, I'm about to get engaged with my girlfriend, or this or that, or I'm having, you know, hey, we're having a kid, like all those things are starting to happen for me where it's just like um I can remember those days sitting, you know, in the hot sun running gassers or whatever with that guy, or and it's that's a the great part about this this game and something kind of circling the wagons of why I wanted to continue playing and stay in college.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it sounds like you made a great adjustment coming from uh Carolina up to Indiana. Uh what was the biggest adjustment adjustment for you?
SPEAKER_01Um, I mean the weather was huge. Um that's kind of passed, but I can tell that it's gonna start getting colder here soon. Yeah. Um, the the offensive schemes, right? Being under center, taking snaps, like I'm still growing and learning on that to this day. Um, and then just the adjustment, a new locker room, new system, new everything, new routines, um, new house. Like I've been in the same house for three years. Um, coming up here to a different apartment, like my my tracks, my dri where I'm driving to, how I'm getting to different places, where can I park, all those little things you kind of take for granted. And at wake, it was almost like the I mean, I could do it with my eyes closed. And then you get here and you're kind of you feel like a freshman, but you're also supposed to be at this 24-year-old, six-year senior that's got it all put together. And so, um, but again, it was I was gracious with Notre Dame, you know, kind of let me it I took me a little bit to get settled in, and even in Springball, I struggled a little bit early, and um, you know, they kept their faith in me and just let me develop and um you know it's paid off so far.
SPEAKER_05Heard you like to fish. What's the fishing like in South Bend compared to Carolina?
SPEAKER_01It's it's a you know, they it was it took a while to be able to, it's so cold here um in the spring. The spring's usually a great time down in uh Winston-Salem to get out, great weather. Um, you know, there's probably there was a lot of ponds up here, but I just don't know enough people to be getting access. Um, and I I think the the big difference, no salt water. So that's that's probably a a huge bummer.
SPEAKER_05You made your Irish debut in Dublin, Dublin, Ireland. Uh what was that whole trip like?
SPEAKER_01Uh it was an incredible experience. I mean, I think it was a home game for us and all, you know, all facets of it. You know, it felt like it. It there was the crowd, it was all green. Um, obviously the execution part, a lot of those, and it it was a very similar to uh the bowl games I've been to, where um kind of the big thing, the asterisk behind everyone is if you win or lose, right? The the great bowl games are the ones you win, the bad ones are the ones you lose, um, no matter what the experience is. But um obviously the you know City of Dublin and and Ireland itself just embraced us, you know, with open arms and and the whole you know airlingus to the you know our 80s setting it all up to the fans, right, to the community. Um all those different things were just so uh so warm, welcoming for us. And and then again being around those guys, again, it was kind of like a mini camp trip for us. We got to you know be around each other even more, and um it's it's special to to get that opportunity and then obviously to capitalize it with the victory was was huge.
SPEAKER_05Uh did you talk to a lot of the people in Ireland? Were they really aware of what Nordame was about?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there was a good um there was a good healthy crew of people that kind of when we were walking the streets or we were at like a dinner thing that you know they were excited. Um my cousin actually lives there. Um he's been living there for about like five years for work, and he's got um, you know, his family there. So it was he lives three minutes from the stadium, so he was all fired up, and he said that everybody from when the month hit that like August hit, it was that's all the buzz was about, and um how the Irish were coming to town, and you know, hope we you know put on a good show, so they had a lot of fun, a lot of Guinness was drinking by other people. I don't know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, right. Um got a two-part question. One, who's your quarterback role model, and then who is your beard role model? Because you've you've probably got the best uh sports beard since since James Harden. Uh and I'm wondering if any facial hair companies are reaching out to you for a little NIL.
SPEAKER_01I gotta I I'll answer the second one first. I don't know if I have a um a beard inspiration. I kinda I know the first time I grew up my hair and like the whole was a was Saul Last Samurai. Um that was like that inspiration, and it's kinda that I that's what I've been getting for the past couple days. Um the beard, I don't know. I think it just grows kind of like I like the like caveman grizzly bear, like revenant look. Um I I want to clean it up, but I can't. Like it's I feel like that'd be you know, bad juju or whatever. And then um quarterback model, like sadly, right now is Aaron Aaron Rodgers, you know. I kind of the style, who he is, um, kind of just his persona of of kind of just playing the game and playing it the way he wants. Um, you know, obviously thinking about him with the injury, I know that's gotta be devastating for really the National Football League of his performance and his caliber and what he brings to the table. Um, but a lot of, I mean, you take a lot, like I I love Jalen Hurts. I think just his story and who he is as a person, from what I've heard, um, is incredible and just the way he his college career went, right? And and kind of the the highs and lows of his his life, even though you know you kind of look at him and say, Oh, it, you know, it's probably super easy and super um you know, very diss for him. I think that was also a guy that I look at and like to watch and you know, just wish I could run like him and throw like him, but it's just somebody I I I I have a h heavy respect for and um know that he's you know one of a kind.
SPEAKER_05Did you have any college football teams that you followed growing up?
SPEAKER_01I was a diehard Michigan fan, um and never was recruited by them, so it it soon faded pretty quickly. Um obviously a a a bad thing for me to say as a Notre Dame quarterback, but that that is that is long gone on me, and I really I really after kind of when I got probably in in probably ninth grade, it was kind of just I was just playing and hoping hoping to play at the next level and got a few offers and and decided on wake, but it was never really any dream. I wanted to play in Michigan, but I soon realized that wasn't an option, so that kind of faded away pretty quickly.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Now that you're at Notre Dame, how much have you learned about uh its history and tradition?
SPEAKER_01Um I mean everything. I mean I think you I think the Ireland game summed it up when you have Joe Montana walking on the sidelines. Um I think that that was uh a special moment um for me. I know for the Notre Dame fans, right, having him around has been um you know something that is you know only Notre Dame can do. Uh and you know, Joe Thysman, those different guys are reaching out to you and and checking in and making sure everything's good. Brady Quinn, right? Um, you know, Jimmy Clausen, like those names, right, are all synonymous, synonymous with some of the greatest college quarterbacks and some of the greatest NFL quarterbacks um to play the game. And uh just those kind of moments where you're like, you know, this is uh this is pretty cool, right? And even you know, the fans and and just the the national global outreach that we have as this brand um in this university is is special and something that you know I don't think I'll ever truly comprehend until I'm out of it, but um it's definitely uh uh a cool thing to be a part of.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So the Heisman Trust, uh, its main mission is actually to help underserve communities and and youth. And I noticed that you were you're with the uh Ronald McDonald House in Michiana and the YMCA. What uh what got you involved in those uh in those two organizations?
SPEAKER_01Um I mean I think they uh you know Notre Dame partnered with them and and gave us the ability to go there. And I I kind of I got pretty hooked into um, you know, both my parents work uh in medicine. My mom was a nurse, dad's a doctor, um, both retired, but kind of that service industry and and knowing um both ends of it, uh understanding that you know there's the workers and also the um the patients as well, and and getting around the Ronald McDonald house and and helping um pushing the coffee carts like we'll be we'll go Friday. I was there on Sunday checking in on um a little girl who's going to uh get a uh blood transplant. She just was declared cancer free, so we went over and um dropped off some some sweatshirts and and whatnot, some Notre Dame gear. I I think it's just um the ability to give back and and inspire. I I was I've been in a hospital twice with some stuff that I'll never forget. Randy Moss came and visited me when I was 17 years old, and I still have sitting on my bedside uh uh ball signed by him, and it it says, you know, stay hungry, rest works, you know, I can see it right now. And it was something that I'm sure he doesn't even remember, and I've been dying to get, you know, I know he does some announcing and commentating of just to get uh a thank you or uh just a I appreciate it, and it goes I know it goes a long way, and um, you know, something that is special and to me and and hopefully makes an impact on somebody's day. And uh I think that that's you know why I do it and and why we do it as a Notre Dame community.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. What's the best part about playing college football?
SPEAKER_01The team. The team in the locker room. I think uh seeing seeing the success and the hard work pay off is is the two greatest things and and being around this group of individuals is is huge.
SPEAKER_05Did you have any favorite Heisman winners growing up?
SPEAKER_01I wasn't really it's kind of bad. I don't I mean uh everybody loved John. Yeah, everyone loved Johnny Manzel, but you know, he's I mean he's Johnny Manzel. He's he's one of a kind. Um I kind of like the guys that didn't got went there and didn't win it and came back and had better years. I mean, I think it's um some of that part of it. I mean, I I don't r not really. I would say no. I can't not no one comes to mind.
SPEAKER_05Fair enough. Do you know any do you know any uh Notre Dame Heisman winners?
SPEAKER_01Have you met um met any of them or I totally have, and all the names just are flying right out of my head. I I I have and it's a shame that I don't know the names, but um if I was more if I'd been here longer, I feel like I'd take I'd be upset, but uh it's um I know that there, you know, there are a few. Um you see you see the Heisman trophies every time you walk into the weight room. So um but I do need to be more well inversed on those names, but I do not know the names.
SPEAKER_05We'll we'll give you a pass because you're you're so new. Yeah, I appreciate that. Finally, if you were a Heisman voter and you were looking at a quarterback and wanted to determine uh you know which which quarterback was worthy of your vote, what would you be looking for? What little areas that are maybe beyond the the top line stats, what would you look at?
SPEAKER_01Um I mean I think part of it is the the bounce back factor. I think um after bad plays, how do they react? I think um, you know, I again you you want the Heisman to be the perfect, you know, go you know 10 for 10, 20 for 20, and you know, do all these things. Um I think at the great ones and the and the ones that I've seen um play at a really high level, the ones that just bounce back from adversity. And um I think that's in any player, in any award, any whatever you want to call it. I think that ability is is probably the biggest one I see.
SPEAKER_05Sam Hartman, thanks for taking the time to join us on the official Heisman Trophy Podcast. Good luck with to you uh and your team for the rest of the season. We wish you good health and success.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. Go Irish.
SPEAKER_04This is Danny Worfel, 1996 Heisman Trophy winner, and you're listening to the official Heisman Trophy podcast.
SPEAKER_05Take an even deeper dive into Heisman lore by going to Heisman.com, home to all things Heisman, including news, bios, and the latest on all the winners, plus updates on the Heisman Trophy Trust and its charitable mission. It's the A to Z for Everything Heisman, from Alan Amici to Danny Werfel. We really need a Heisman winner whose name begins with Z. Our next guest is one of the more electrifying players in college football history, and the second receiver to win the Heisman Trophy. Like our previous guest Sam Hartman, he's from the University of Notre Dame. And we had such a good time talking to him and went on for so long, we decided to make this one an all-Irish podcast. He won the Heisman in 1987, the seventh fighting Irish player to win the Heisman Trophy, and then he went on to a storied career in the NFL. Few players who played the sport were better at returning punts and kicks, and very few could make people miss in the open field like he could. Touchdown Timmy, as he was called, is one of ten Heisman winners in the NFL Hall of Fame. And we caught up with them last week from Dallas. Tim Brown, thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy podcast. We're glad to have you on the show.
SPEAKER_00Good to be here, man. Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_05So I wanted to go back to uh where your football career began out at Dallas Woodrow Wilson High. I I read somewhere that you weren't allowed to play football as a freshman and you were actually playing in the marching band. Is that right?
SPEAKER_00Well, that story gets uh gets jumbled up a little bit. Um my mom did not know I was playing. And uh she thought that you know I was in a marching band, but I did play freshman football. But the way we practice, I wasn't getting home at six or seven o'clock. I would still be home by 4:30 because of how we practice. Uh so she was not in favor of me playing football at all. So my dad kept signing, signing the slips for me to play. So so my my freshman year, I was in the marching band, and then I made the varsity team my sophomore year, had a pretty good September. I think I was named Sophomore Sensation or something like that. And uh all of her friends kept calling her, going, Your son is in the paper. You should check it out. And they weren't, they didn't tell her it was sports or whatever, so she came to me. What did you do? What did you do?
SPEAKER_05So you weren't actually in the marching band, you were just pretending to be in the marching band.
SPEAKER_00I was in the marching band my freshman year.
SPEAKER_05Okay, so what what instrument did you play or did you did you uh pretend to play?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I played the uh the uh percussions. I played percussions.
SPEAKER_05Oh, okay. Were you any good?
SPEAKER_00Oh, very good. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I still play play a little bit. I play a mean tambourine and Turk, so very nice, very nice.
SPEAKER_05So we were talking to uh John Fish, the head coach over at Woodrow Wilson. He says he talks to you every once in a while, and he says that your golf tournament there is this a huge benefit for their program. Um what are some of your great memories of uh Woodrow Wilson High?
SPEAKER_00Oh man, you know, I I think the thing that uh was so great about Woodrow was the breakdown of the races. You know, we probably had it was probably 40, 30, 30, man, right? You know, uh Caucasian, black, and Hispanic. And so, you know, growing up like that, when you're around all these different people, really prepares you for different cultures, different way of you know people talk and all this stuff, how they react to stuff. And it was really just a great, great place, man. And uh we really weren't known for our sports per se. Well, we had a great swimming team and a great cross-country team, uh, but that was just about it. I mean, everything else we participated, but you know, um, I don't think anybody, well, I can't say they never dreamt about it because at the uh award ceremony, my senior year, which would have been you know, April, May of '84, uh, because I didn't count the seasons right, they announced me as a 1988 Heisman Trophy winner. So um, she was just awful year, that's all. But uh, so yeah, you know, I I think from that standpoint, man, it was a great place. Uh great friends, you know, friends for life, you know, type place to to uh to to go to school, you know.
SPEAKER_05When you were going to school, did were you aware that Davy O'Brien had had been there?
SPEAKER_00I had no idea. Had no idea. Didn't didn't realize that until after I won the trophy, actually. Um I I was not uh, you know, David, David, uh David had passed away in in the in the late 70s, I believe. Um so that would have been before I got to Woodrow. So I I was never able to uh be around him uh if he came around the school. I'm not even for sure if he did.
SPEAKER_05Tell me a little bit about the recruiting process. Uh I I guess you guys weren't weren't exactly a powerhouse, uh, your team. Uh Woodrow Wilson wasn't. And so but you but you were obviously uh get a lot of attention and and what were some of the schools that you were looking at seriously, and and what really was the final decision or the final factor in helping you make that decision to go to Under Game?
SPEAKER_00Well, if you call a school that was 425 and 1 in three years of playing football, not a powerhouse, maybe you'd be right. So uh I was being charitable. You know, I think for me, right, right. You know, I think for me, um, you know, I I played the sport simply because that's what my friends were doing, right? So, you know, I wanted to hang out with my boys, so um the cheerleaders seem to like the football players, so um, you know, that that's what I was doing, and that's the reason I was doing it. Uh, it wasn't until my junior year um we were playing Skyline High School, one of the schools that we beat every year. So Mount uh Woodrow and Skyline, uh most of the kids that go to those schools, they all went to uh uh JLong middle school. And then there's a split after that, and some kids go to long and some kids, some kids go to Woodrow.
SPEAKER_05Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00So that was always a game that we got up for. We played our best football of the year. Well, this particular game, um, I had my junior year, early in my junior year, I had four touchdowns: a kick return, a pump return, a long catch, and a long run. I think I had over 400 yards all-purpose yarders that day. And uh, and that night, Notre Dame had came to recruit Dante Jones, a kid who went on to play for Oklahoma and played 10 years at middle linebacker for Chicago Bears. Uh, they came to recruit him, and I had that incredible game. Um, so then after that, you know, they sent a letter. They came, it was a Thursday night game. I tell people, it's not Friday night football if you play Woodrow Wilson, because we were so bad, we had to play on Thursday night. So, but um, so yeah, so you know, that game, played that game, and then after that, you know, it was really just a matter of, okay, what's happening here? Because Notre Dame, once they sent me a letter, it seems like I got letters from everybody around the country. And my mom, you know, she didn't understand, my dad didn't understand, but my older brother, thankfully, you know, he was eight years older than me at the time, was really blown away by what was happening and and um and really took control of of the situation to help me out.
SPEAKER_05So you really weren't into football that much. I mean, you were playing football in high school, but you weren't really into watching games and watching teams as as much as as most guys were.
SPEAKER_00Well, I love the cowboys. I mean, you know, I I did follow the cowboys, but that was basically it. And, you know, while my time in high in high school, uh SMU with the Pony Express got really hot. Uh, so we certainly followed them. But beyond that, man, I mean, I couldn't have, you know, well, well, the teams the Cowboys played on a regular basis, the Eagles, the Giants, and and the Redskins at the time, you know, I I probably could have named players of those teams, but anybody else from yeah, I I probably wouldn't wouldn't have known that much about them because it was always Cowboys focused for me.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Were were you always gonna be a receiver or did other schools want you to be other positions potentially?
SPEAKER_00I played running back uh in high school mostly because we didn't have a quarterback who could throw the ball. So uh, you know, my senior year, I would rotate from quarterback to running back to to receiver, depending on where the ball was going, is where I would line up. So um, yeah, so yeah, you know, I I I was a great, I was a good running back. Well, I had great instincts as as a running back, but I didn't have the mentality uh to be a running back. You know, my idea was I always want to bounce out or do whatever. I didn't have the mentality, that four-yard mentality that they talk about. Well, you gotta, you know, make that cut and go get those four yards. I never had that mentality. So I knew I couldn't play um running back at a high level uh because I I just I wouldn't have made it. I wouldn't have made it through it, I don't believe.
SPEAKER_05So once you got that letter from Notre Dame, was it just kind of a fate accomplis at that point? Notre Dame came calling and and and you're like, okay, I have this is this is where I gotta go. Or because it was Jerry, Jerry Faust, right? Was the coach?
SPEAKER_00Right, right. You know, I I had no idea about Notre Dame and didn't know where it was, and literally had to go to the library to look it up to see where it was. And when I figured out it was 1200 miles away from here, I was like, no way. I had no way I'm going that far away. And you know, you see the weather, it's like, no, I'm not dealing with that six months a year. Um so, but my brother, who was also one of these Subway alumni guys, knew everything about the university, or knew a lot about the university, I should say. And, you know, told my parents about you know the academia there, and you know, if he graduates from there, life for him, you know, he'll be able to make make do through life, at least, you know what I mean, if he doesn't, if, if, if, uh, if nothing else. And uh, so, but at the same time, SMU was calling Oklahoma, Nebraska, Iowa. Uh, I think Penn State was in there for a minute. Um, and it was uh it was a difficult decision. And I can tell you, if not for what was going on with SMU, uh, SMU would have been a very difficult place to say no to because it would have given me the opportunity to get a great education and be closer home and play good football, you know, at a high level. So uh, but you know, once I realized that all those schools, besides Iowa wasn't so bad, but the other three were really, you know, when it came to rules and things of that nature, um, they they just skirted right by them. So uh my my brother wasn't going for that at all. I mean, he told my parents, hey, he could be ruled ineligible if this stuff happens, and uh, you know, cut back on a little cash I was getting, but but you know, I didn't know any better at the time. I'm 16 years old. Sure. You know what I mean? And uh so it was yeah, it was a little crazy.
SPEAKER_05So it was a little bit of a culture shock going to South Bend, Indiana in the in the fall of 84, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you can you can call it that, you know. I mean, um I think that, you know, if not, you know, for the fact that you had some great guys there that I knew I was gonna be teaming up with, uh, literally guys who I talk to every day now. Actually, we got about 15 guys we call ourselves Bond, Brothers of Notre Dame. Um, you know, we sort of locked on to each other and uh hadn't hadn't let go in 40 years, right? So uh, you know, but I think you know, the great thing about Notre Dame, man, you don't go there thinking about a Heisman trophy and how many years you can play in the NFL once you leave. You go there thinking, what am I gonna do with my life, you know, uh, you know, once I leave here. And so I I think from that standpoint, you know, um, I knew it was gonna be tough. You know, the first year was the first six months was really tough. First semester was extremely tough. But after that, you know, I mean, my folks would always tell me, man, you're not missing anything. We're sitting in the same chair when you're not here. You know, there's no party going on, there's nothing going on, you're not missing a thing, you know. So just chill out, you know, and enjoy yourself. You know, so you know, I think for me, you know, getting through those first, that first semester, being able to come home and um and then you know, go back out, you know. Now that winter stuff was was pretty tough, pretty daunting, right? I mean, trying to deal with that, dealing with feet of snow when you've only had inches in your whole life was a was a difficult thing. But, you know, as long as you have good snow boots, man, you can make it through.
SPEAKER_05Did you ever find yourself going out to Chicago to to uh enjoy that city?
SPEAKER_00Well, the problem is, you know, during football season you can't go, and then you have winter, you you know, you can't go. And uh, but late later in my in my junior and senior year, uh, you know, we would have some free time, more free time than than before. So we we did spend a couple weekends in Chicago, Michael Jackson concert and things of that nature that we went to go see. Uh the All-Star Game, which I know is early in uh earlier in the year, but we did go over there for the after my senior year, went over there for that. Um so yeah, I mean, you know, not as much as people think because it's really not available to us because of the weather and football season.
SPEAKER_05So, yeah, the first two years with uh Coach Faust and then and then he was let go. When that happened, were you were you worried about how might things might turn out? And and and what did you think when you first met Lou Holtz?
SPEAKER_00Not at all. I mean, uh look, I mean, I went there to get an education. You know, my plan was to get an education, come back home, marry my high school sweetheart, be a deacon in the church. I mean, if you'd asked me that, I'd repeat it to you like it it was planted on my forehead, you know. So um, you know, I think for me, when Coach Holtz came in, it was like, okay, well, this is what he wants us to do, so let's go do it. I mean, it wasn't that I was disappointed or happy because in my mind, I wasn't there just for football. I was there to get an education. And, you know, so it didn't bother me or make me happy or anything until you know we went through Winterball first, which was 5 a.m. practices, and we rolled right out of those practices. Everybody had to have an 8 a.m. class, so that was uh made for a very interesting morning for sure. Uh but um and once we got on the field, after two days of practice, you know, he pulled me over and told me to come to his office, and uh he had these litany of questions, man. Just why weren't you playing more? I don't know, coach, they just didn't play me. Don't you lie to me, kid? You tell me the truth. Why weren't you playing? Coach, I don't know. Was it drugs? Was it women? Was it grades? You tell me the story right now. I said, Coach, I have no idea. These people just there's no coach itself in America dumb enough not to play you. You tell me the truth right now. And uh, and you know, so that went on for a couple minutes until he realized I didn't have another answer for it, because you know, the only thing I could tell him is, hey, look, you know, the very first time I touched the ball, you know, I fumbled to open the kickoff my freshman year, literally to open the kickoff of the year, I fumbled it. And I think they just didn't have any trust in me anymore, you know. So, and they were trying to, you know, they knew they were struggling as a coach's staff, so they weren't gonna put a kid out there that in their minds may not perform for them, you know what I mean? So um, so after all that, you know, he told me after two days of practice, he told me he thought I could be the best player in the country. And uh I looked around like somebody else had walked in the room because I mean I I just knew he wasn't talking to me. And you know, so um, you know, he told me, you know, I'm doing things on the field that he had never seen before in a player, uh, things that they're not asking me to do. You know, you know, you can run with the ball, you can catch the ball, you know what I mean? And um and then he told the media that he thought I was the most intelligent player that he'd ever coached. And um, everybody got all excited about that. I told him, well, he was at Arkansas and Minnesota, so I don't know how excited we should be about him.
SPEAKER_05That is too good. I can I can imagine uh Coach Holt Coach Holtz making that doing that rant and asking those questions. Um so so you weren't very self-aware as a player. You you kind of didn't know how good you were.
SPEAKER_00Well, I knew I was fast, and I knew I had the ability to make people miss. Um but and I guess if you're fast and you have the ability to make people miss, and you can catch a ball, that those those things could go hand in hand. But you know, at Woodrow, they did what they had to do because that's the only way we had a chance of winning the game. And uh as you can see, it didn't work out but four times in three years. Uh, but you know, I never felt like that was the focus in the two years, you know, with Jerry Fowles. And again, I understand why. Um, but you know, so I was never in that position before where I was a guy, or you know, we're gonna get you 10 touches a game or seven touches a game or whatever. And uh Lou told me that the only way I wouldn't get the ball is if they found a way to intercept the snap from center. You know, if he did that, he couldn't get me the ball. But uh if the ball got to his quarterback, it was gonna get in my hands some kind of way. And you know, that kind of confidence, even with that, you know, it literally took me a couple weeks because after two days he brought me in, but he he was bringing me in every day for a couple weeks after that, and just you know, just saying, man, look, this is incredible stuff, you know. And I finally just said to myself, you know, look, this old man is crazy. Just do just do what he says, and you know, and this are all this all pass by, and we can go back to being who we were, right? And that that's that's what I said to myself. Just go out and do everything that he asked you to do, you know, full speed, you know what I mean? And um, and that's what I did, man. And and everything just literally took off from there.
SPEAKER_05It sounds to me, based on what you're saying, that Coach Holtz saw you and kind of told you what you needed to hear, right? Like he he could read you and could see that you know you were very talented, and and maybe though that you didn't have a lot of confidence, and maybe you you didn't really know the context of of where everything fit. Uh, you think that's why he's think he saw that and that's why he he spent that time on you?
SPEAKER_00Well, I I think I I was confident when I hit the field. My thing is I never looked at football as a way out, right? I always thought my way out was get the education. So Coach was the one who told me I could have both. And that was really the thing that opened up my mind. He said, son, you can have both. And I had never thought about having both. I've never, because my mom and dad, when I walked out the house, man, they told me there's no future in football for you, boy. You go up there and get that education and come on back home. Yeah, you know what I mean? So that was my mindset. So when he convinced me that I could have both, that's when I was like, wow, you know what I mean? Yeah, so it really opened me up to okay, well, let me go do all this in a football field, then I can go back and do my studies, and you know, and and it just that changed me right there because I had never thought about that. I've never had a conversation with anybody about having both.
SPEAKER_05So I want to talk about your your punt return and kick return abilities. Was that something you were always good at? Was it a natural thing, or or did you have to work at it to become good?
SPEAKER_00No, it it was. I mean, from the time I started playing football, man. I mean, I can remember us, you know, when in the sixth sixth grade, you know, sort of lining up and doing that, and I always wanted to be the guy in the back who was returning the kicks or whatever. Even though we didn't have no no pads on anything of that nature, I would work so hard to make sure no one even touched me, you know, and uh running around little sixth graders, you know. So uh, you know, but even in junior high school, you know, I I returned punts and kicks, and and you know, of course, you didn't get many that came to you, you have to go pick them up on the ground. Uh but um always found a way to return one or two, if not more, every year. And uh, of course, once you get to high school, the bigger lights on you, but um, you know, it was always something that I felt very, very comfortable doing. And and uh so you know, to fumble the opening kickoff my my freshman year was devastating from a lot of points of views, right? Because uh this is what I knew I could do, right? I don't know about this receiver stuff or whatever position they're gonna have me playing eventually, but I knew I could return punts and kicks. You know, I that was something that I thought I was very I was very comfortable doing. And uh so that was a real setback for me from a confidence standpoint, returning kicks and stuff anyway. But I did go in the game later on, you know, they had a package for me that uh they had canceled after after the fumble, but they allowed me, you know, they called the package and they were trying to call me back, and I was like, I'm not turning around. Somebody's gonna have to come get me out the huddle, and I ended up making a big catch that kept a drive going on uh going. So so yeah, you know, it it was uh it was definitely that type of thing. But I always felt like returning kicks was something that I could do uh at every level that I played football.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. You talked about not having the running back mentality. What but you did obviously have the return man mentality. What what is the return man mentality in football? Like what what kind of person is the return man? The person who would go back there and take on all comers, take on the entire team. Sometimes you're back there and the crowds, the crowds cheering at you, jeering at you. It's gotta be a certain kind of cat to to be that guy, right?
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, you know, and and not trying to be funny, but you have to be a little scared. You know, you you really have to be a little scared because you can't get back there going, oh, I'm just gonna, you know, absorb all these hits. You gotta you gotta have the mentality, man, I don't want these guys to touch me.
unknownI don't
SPEAKER_00These guys to hit me, and what do I have to do to avoid that? You know what I mean? And you know, and I I think most of the time, you know, I had a way of dodging the hits, you know, because I knew first of all I had to get up and go back into the offense, and second of all, you know, I always knew this. If if I weigh 190 and a guy hitting me weighs 220, I'm gonna lose that battle. Yeah every every time. I'm gonna lose that battle. So don't try and take these guys on. Get what you can get and and get down, but get down in a way that's that's that's positive for your team. And not that you've given up yourself, but you realize I can't do anymore, so let me just make sure I get down, you know. And so, you know, look, I I often say that, man. I I look at punt returning now and kick returning, and I wonder how in the world did I do that for 17 years in NFL? And well, all 27 years of my foot playing football, I return punts and kicks, you know, and um, you know, it's uh it's a crazy thing when you think about it, but you know, I think you know, the brave guys are the guys who get hurt, are the guys who you know get the big hits. There's no reason to ever take a big big hit on a palm return because you always have the right to put your hand up and fair catch it. And you know, if you start running, then you know you you know get you 10 yards and get your butt down. Yeah, you know, so um so I think from my standpoint, you know, you know, I I know that scare dancer is not probably what you're looking for, but it played a big part in my mentality of how to return punts.
SPEAKER_05So you go into 1986, and the Irish was a lot of close games that year. You guys were really close. I think you were five and six, but but yeah, I feel like four or five, three or four of the losses were could have gone either way.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I think the first time I heard your name watching uh television was that USC Notre Dame game, the end of your junior year. And you just really exploded onto the national stage in that in that game. Uh what are your memories of that game and and uh and what what did is that accurate? Did that did it make you feel like you'd sort of arrived after that game uh happened?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh that game definitely set me up for the 87th season, no doubt about it. Um I don't remember what I had all purpose, but I think it was over 200 yards all purpose that beat that game. And to have the big pump return uh at the end of the game, and um I think I had a big catch in the game or whatever. So uh yeah, it it was a um it was a fantastic game for me, you know. And I I'm thankful that it was USC. It was a team that we had beaten every year and that we had a streak going at that time. I don't remember what it was, but it certainly there was a lot of you know talk about you know about that. You know, let's go out and finish the year. You know, I think Etsy was on their way to a bowl game, I believe. And uh so you know that was our bowl game. The season was over after that, and um, and we knew that obviously going into the game. So uh for me, you know, uh we didn't think that Etsy was gonna kick us the ball. You know, I had a pretty good year returning punts, and um, so and they hadn't punted me the ball all all game. And all of a sudden, the last game, the last punt of the game, for the most part, they punted me the ball. And I don't know, if you go back and look at that film, I'm like jumping, like, oh my god, I can't believe the ball is coming up, it's coming my way. Uh, so you know, and uh my guys, because everybody was so committed to our punt return, kick return team, I mean, they did an incredible job and set a wall up, and all I literally had to do was run.
SPEAKER_05Well, kicking the ball to you was probably one of the reasons Ted Tolnery got fired uh not long after that after that game. Um and that was the game you guys got over the hump. You know, you you guys finally won a close game, beat, you know, beat USC, they were ranked. And so now you're going into the offseason, going into your senior year. Are is are things starting to come together in your head? You're you know, as you as you're as the the the new year's approaching, do you are you thinking, hey, I can I can have a huge year, uh, they're gonna use me all kinds of ways. Or what was your mentality going into that senior year?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, uh in the locker room after that game, uh the late great reporter Jim Murray from LA Times uh came up to me and said uh that I was gonna be his front runner for the Heisman next year. And uh that freaked me out because literally I hadn't thought about that all year. I hadn't, you know, I had an incredible junior year, but I hadn't thought about, and no one had really mentioned that. Uh the Notre Dame reporters had never mentioned my name for the Heisman, my junior year. Uh so I remember going out and asking my telling my brother, hey man, this guy said I was gonna be his front runner for the Heisman this year. And I was like, because we hadn't even never talked about the NFL. And I was like, well, even if I don't win the Heisman, you think somebody may want me to play in the NFL? And we looked at each other like, nah, that ain't gonna happen. That ain't gonna happen. What are you talking about, kid? Yeah and uh so we just shrugged it off, man, and went about our business, but things quickly changed after that because you know, uh the the list for the 87, uh the top 10 players for the 87 came out like after the last bowl game of the year or whatever.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And uh and my name was you know, top three, four, five, or whatever it was, top ten for sure. And uh so we realized then that life was changing, and uh the preparation for the next season had to start now. Uh, you know, we ended up getting a Lords of London insurance policy and and you know, all those kind of things just to sort of you know make sure if anything happened, then you know, certainly I could, you know, recoup some cash out the deal. Uh, but um, but yeah, so but you know, as far as I ran track that offseason at Notre Dame, you know, so I was really trying to do everything I wanted to do and not really be so, you know, football conscious, oh my god, I gotta go run this route again and all that kind of stuff. Um, you know, and I think you know, being free like that sort of, you know, let me go into the next season, you know, excited, but not really with any kind of expectations of winning a Heisman or anything else. You have to understand that I had never had a winning season playing football. You know, uh well, I think I think maybe uh I mean maybe we went six and five Jerry slash, I don't know, maybe we went six and five one of those years.
SPEAKER_05I'm not for sure. I think 84, I think you might, I think 84 you might have gone seven and five. Six and five.
SPEAKER_00I think we went six and five, yeah, because it went to a bowl game and um and uh and lost to SMU, I believe it was, where I returned a kick for a touchdown in that game. Uh um, yeah, but you know, but when we got off to such a great start my senior year, I think we were seven and one or something like six and two or something like that. It really seven and one. Yeah, it you know, that was all that I was focused on, man. You know, I think we went into the Penn State game. We win that game. I think we go to Miami with a chance to to to go play for the championship. But we lose the Penn State game, so everything was off after that.
SPEAKER_05A very close, very close game, 21 to 20.
SPEAKER_00Oh, because freaking Tony Rice don't pitch me the ball. If he pitches me the ball, I walk in.
SPEAKER_05Well, you know, Tony Rice was he was still splitting time with uh with um it was Andrew Zak, or what was his name?
SPEAKER_00Well, Andrew Zak, he was out because uh he tore his uh Okay his his he broke his collarbone or something, so he was out.
SPEAKER_05That's right, that's right.
SPEAKER_00But um, yeah, so you know, so I I think you know, up until the Penn State game, there was no talk in the locker room about me winning the Heisman. Literally. I mean, even after the Michigan State game when I had those incredible two-part returns back to back, uh, the boys then started talking about the Heisman. We were all so focused on trying to win a championship uh until we lost at Penn State. And after that, that's all the boys talked about. Let's go win Timmy the Heisman, let's go do this and let's go do that. And I don't I can't say I didn't play bad in Miami, but I didn't have any kind of a game in Miami because you know, I mean, obviously they were so pumped up to play us, you know. We didn't get, you know, I think we lost 20 to 6 or something of that nature, but uh uh, you know, it it was uh it was certainly not the the last game I wanted to have at Notre Dame uh in the regular season for sure.
SPEAKER_05Coach Holtz really, I thought, used you in many different ways that year. He had you you were played a little bit of running back, lined up at running back, you were all over the field. Uh I remember the USC game, you were all over the field in that game. Uh but really the key to that season for you winning the Heisman is what everyone talks about, or are those two pint returns against Michigan State. Um was that something that uh uh was that sort of like just your day as a part returner? Like are were you feeling it that day? Uh what how do you explain the the rare circumstance of doing two pint returns?
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, it it it's really, really amazing, man, when you when you think back on that, because um it shouldn't have happened, it wasn't supposed to happen. Yeah, um the first punt was a plan um pump, it was a plan return, return right, right? And I really should have fair caught the ball because they were close enough to me that you know I should have I probably should have fair caught the ball. But I just said, hey, look, I mean, the defense had played, you know, and there was a little air, a little buzz in the stadium, man. I was like, let's try and make it happen. And almost as soon as I catch the ball, I have to dip, you know, a little bit just to get up in the into the wedge, and then I was able to get, you know, it's like everybody ran past me almost, and now I get out to the outside, and you know, it's me and one guy, and I always felt in open field that if anybody touches me, not tackles me, touches me in open field, then I'm a I'm a quick footballer. That's why I used to tell myself all time. Yeah, and uh so I made a move on that guy and uh got to the end zone. Now, understand this there was no TV timeout, uh-huh, right? So we kicked extra point and we line up and we kick the ball off, and in three plays, the defense is off the field.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I'm literally, I'm literally on the bench with oxygen mass on. And I told Coach Stu, I said, Coach, you know, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta block this. You gotta block this because I I you know I'm dead, right? So we had a block on, you know, I mean, there's no return set up.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So so when I catches the ball, when I catch the ball, I say to myself, run to your sideline and just you know, try to run out of bounds. But as soon as I got the ball, I realized they had covered the field pretty good. And, you know, so I wasn't gonna be able to get to the sideline. I would literally have to run, you know, uh horizontal to the to the field, you know, to get to the sideline. So I was like, okay, well, let me just take it up in here a little bit. And one guy just he he got overzealous, zealous, and and he went too far outside. I was able to make a cut on that guy.
SPEAKER_05You shook him pretty good.
SPEAKER_00And after that, it was, you know, now all my guys are coming back towards me for the most part, right? Yeah, so they're picking guys off behind me. So now it's me and the punter.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you know, again, now if a punter touches you, now you should really give up your helmet that day. Uh so so, you know, I made a move on him and I got an end zone. You sold and I got an end zone. I just flipped the ball. I was yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't even move. I was so tired. But uh, you know, so look, I mean, what's meant to be is meant to be, right? And that's how I look at it. Uh, but you know, that that happened on a plane that I was literally supposed to fair catch again. Uh, but you know, I just chose let me get a few yards, and that turned into, well, cut inside, and all of a sudden it was me in open field again. And uh, so uh I'm thankful for it, you know what I mean, even though it wasn't a call return and all that. Uh but um, you know, I guess when it's meant to be, it's meant to be.
SPEAKER_05So later on the year you get the word that you're heading to New York. Did you go to New York thinking you were gonna win?
SPEAKER_00Um, you know, you never want to put yourself in that position, right? To be to be that disappointed. But one of my one of my boys uh came up to me, one of my teammates, and he said, Timmy, look, you're gonna win the Heisman because no one is gonna vote you worse than second. Right? Gassy Green may win in the West, but you're gonna be second.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And Donnie may win in the east, but you're gonna be second. Or Donnie is gonna be third or fourth. And and he had this logic, man, that made perfectly great analysis, actually. And um, and you know, so I was like, yeah, yeah, no, don't don't tell me, don't, don't, don't go there. Don't look anyway, you know. So uh, but you know, look, I mean, to be in that room, to be in that situation, um, you know, wasn't it was all was incredible. Obviously, it's nothing like it is now. Uh, but uh no, that was a remarkable moment, man. And uh, but no, I I didn't not I tried not, even though my boy made a lot of sense, I tried to go there with a because you know, you shake hands with James Brown and he says, You had a great year, Tim. And you think, oh wow, okay, well, he would know, right? And then, you know, you you shake hands with with Jim Nancy, well, whatever happens, Tim, you had an incredible, oh, I didn't win it. You know, so you know, you it's like, you know, uh everybody you shake hands with, you know, so uh it's a nerve-wracking uh uh place to be, but what a great place to be at the same time.
SPEAKER_05And then they say your name and and then what goes through your head?
SPEAKER_00Well, I didn't realize at that time, but I think I sort of went into shock, man. I went up there, I couldn't say a word. I I was just trying to, I saw my mom and dad, so I thanked them. My brother, I saw him and Coach Holtz, and I was it. That's all I could get out. I wouldn't sit down after that. Uh, but no, look, it's it's it's shocking, man, to realize that what Coach Holtz had said to you two years prior uh had just came true. That you are now the best player, and I'm putting up air quotes if you can't see me. Uh the best player in the country, right? And coach Coach says all the time that he didn't come to New York to see me win. He came there if I lost, right? And uh, if I didn't win the Heisman, you know, he wanted to be there for me. And uh so uh, you know, it it was an amazing, amazing moment. But I didn't realize then, but I quickly realized that winning that award changed my name, right? Because unless I'm in church, I'm uh I'm always announced as Heisman Trophy winner Tim Brown.
SPEAKER_05So your life changed after that.
SPEAKER_00No doubt, without a doubt. Without a doubt.
SPEAKER_05So you went on to have a star-studded career, NFL. Um, my producer Paul is actually uh a huge Raiders fan, and he's super excited about this interview. Um you also played with a couple other uh Heisman Trophy winners uh on the Raiders, uh Marcus Allen and Charles Woodson. Did you guys uh were you guys able to form a special bond uh over having that shared experience of winning the Heisman?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, at one point Bo Bo was there, you know. So when I got to training camp, there were four Heisman Trophy winners on the roster because Bo wasn't in training camp with us, but he was on the roster. But um uh Plunkett, Jim Plunkett was was was in training camp with me my my rookie year for a couple weeks before they cut him. Uh so the Raiders had four four four four guys on the roster. You know, Desmond ended up playing with me, and um uh my man out of Houston, the quarterback. Oh, geez, drawing a blank on him. Uh uh Andre Ware? Yeah, Andre Ware, you know, he was he came there for a minute. So um uh well no. Ware was uh we played a game where Andre Ware was at Detroit, uh uh Barry was there, Bo, Marcus, and myself, and all five of us scored a touchdown that night. Wow in a Monday night game in 1990. So um uh yeah, so it was uh yeah, the Heisman thing, man, look, I mean, I think you know, um the Heisman I don't want to say it's a curse, but if you win the Heisman and now you're in a c in an NFL locker room, the the ribbon that you take, man, the punishment that you take is way beyond anything that you can ever imagine. What do they say? What do they say to you?
SPEAKER_05What can they say?
SPEAKER_00Well you you have guys who you know you have guys who are 29, 30 years old who will flat out come out and tell you, you better be lucky. I wasn't in college there, because you wouldn't have won nothing. I would have done that. You know what I mean? You know, you just have guys, you know, defensive guys a little short in the brain stem anyway, I think. So uh but uh you know, so you had guys that would come up and just say crazy stuff to you, and you know, and um, and I I think that's partly why you have some guy who failed, some guys who failed, because the beating, mental big beatings that you take in your own locker room is enough to to discourage you from from being a good player. Yeah, you know what I mean? And uh, but I think for me, the best thing that happened to me, I fumbled up in a kickoff in my freshman year. The first time I touched the ball at NFL, I returned it for a touchdown. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_05So You rectified the situation.
SPEAKER_00It put me in a situation that if I never do it again, you can't say I didn't do it.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And guess what? I never did it again because I didn't return kickoffs after my my rookie year. Yeah, you know, so uh it put me in a position where no one could come and say, uh, you uh you're a bust, you're this, you're that. You know, I mean, after my first year, I should have been rookie of the year. They gave it to that freaking uh dancing running back up in Cincinnati, Icky Woods.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, he had that little dance, that's right.
SPEAKER_00Uh he barely had a thousand yards that year.
SPEAKER_05You should have you just needed to have a dance uh to get to win it. That's all pub.
SPEAKER_00I know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, it probably would have helped if we'd been in the playoffs that year.
SPEAKER_05All right. Tim Brown, 1987 Heisman Trophy winner from the University of Notre Dame. Thank you so much for coming on the Official Heisman Trophy Podcast. A fascinating account of your amazing career at Rotre Dame, and we thank you for coming on.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, brother. Appreciate you. Thanks for your time.
SPEAKER_05The official Heisman Trophy podcast journey every Wednesday during the college football season and is hosted, co-produced, edited, and engineered by Chris Houston. Paul Goldberg is the executive producer and editor. Special shout out to Isaac Lowenbron, and big thanks to the Heisman Trophy Trust and its executive director, Rob Whalen, and Associate Director Tim Henry. The official Heisman Trophy podcast can be found on Spotify, Apple Music, and anywhere you listen to your favorite podcast. You can also find clips of our show on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. Just go to Heisman Trophy.
