The Heisman Hopefuls Podcast
The Heisman Hopefuls Podcast, hosted by Heisman historian Chris Huston, features year round interviews with top Heisman contenders, insider stories from Heisman history, hard-hitting discussion of the latest college football news plus updates on the Heisman Trophy Trust’s charitable work. New episodes every Thursday. Follow @HeismanTrophy on all platforms and watch clips on YouTube and TikTok. Contact: pod@heisman.com
The Heisman Hopefuls Podcast
Washington State QB Cameron Ward
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Washington State Cougar Cameron Ward joins us to talk about his journey from Wing-T quarterback in West Columbia, Texas, to the FCS, to the FBS, to 2023 Heisman candidate in the Palouse. With the Red River Showdown looming on Saturday, 1998 Heisman Trophy winner Ricky Williams stops by to give his thoughts on the Longhorns, his amazing senior season and what he's been up to lately. Finally, The Athletic's Stewart Mandel chats with us about his publication's latest Heisman poll and whether Caleb Williams might have as good a shot as any player in a long time to win a second Heisman.
The Heisman Hopefules Podcast streams every Thursday during the college football season and is hosted by Chris Huston. The pod is available on all streaming networks, including Spotify and Apple Music, and full videos of the show are available on YouTube, with clips on TikTok and Instagram.
Email us at pod@heisman.com for feedback and inquiries.
Welcome to the official I think Toby podcast. And the winner is here's your host, Chris Houston.
SPEAKER_03Welcome back to the official Heisman Trophy Podcast as we say goodbye to September and say hello to October. You know, each year's Heisman race is a story unto itself, with a beginning, a middle, and an end. And we're at the end of the beginning. And we're just about to start the middle. Which of course is getting to the good part. Buckle up because we're about to get into the heat of conference play, some great matchups, rivalries, and when this month comes to a close and the dust settles, we might see the races winnowed down a bit as we head into the final chapter. This looks to be one of the more exciting Heisman races in recent memory. History could be made in any number of ways, and we're really excited to talk about it and bring on some great guests to put it all into context. We've got a fantastic podcast for you today. Later on in our show, we're going to have Stuart Mandel of the Athletic.com, who's going to talk about the Athletics' latest Heisman poll. 1998 Heisman Trophy winner Ricky Williams of the University of Texas will be here to share his thoughts on the 119th edition of the Red River Showdown. He's also going to take us on a deep dive into his 1998 Heisman winning season and give us an update on what he's been up to lately. You won't want to miss that one. And we're going to lead off our show like we always do with an interview with one of the best players in the country. We're talking about Washington State junior quarterback, Cameron Ward. This young man has been on quite a journey from a small town in Southeast Texas to the FCS and now to the FBS. So here's your chance to learn more about this rather unexpected Heisman candidate. But before we get to all of that, let's do like we always do and round up the latest in the Heisman World.
SPEAKER_02It's the Heisman Roundup. Week five.
SPEAKER_03Week five of the college football season saw some incredible performances, and we're gonna jump right into it with some of the most impressive efforts starting with 2022 Heisman Trophy winner Caleb Williams over at USC. Williams, in his quest to become just the second two-time Heisman winner, threw for 403 yards and a career high tie in six touchdown passes to lead USC to a 48-41 win at Colorado. He now has a national best 21 touchdown passes and also leads the country in yards per attempt and quarterback rating. To say he's playing at a high level in his bid to win a second trophy is an understatement.
SPEAKER_01Watch Williams. Williams Pumpkin looking, taking his time all day to throw it, flies more times tied on three, and it's gone. Across the field, it's sideline times down USA.
SPEAKER_03It's 71.0, Texas is up to its best start since 2009 when it won its first 13 games in relative BCS title appearance, and quarterback Quinn Ewers is a huge reason why. In Saturday's 40-14 win over previously unbeaten Kansas, Ewers passed for 325 yards in a score and also put on the end zone twice on the ground, including this 30-yard run that opened the game scoring. Speaking of 5-0, how about Kentucky? The Wildcats broke through into the top 25 after beating Florida 33-14 behind a monster game by running back Ray Davis. The senior ran for a career high 280 yards and four scores and also caught a 9-yard touchdown pass. All four of Davis's TD runs came in the first half, including this 75-yard burst. Q tight end Brock Bowers. The talented junior caught eight passes for 157 yards, all but nine of them in the second half, and his 40-yard touchdown catch with under three minutes left was the winning score on the 27-20 win. It was also Powers' second-straight 100-yard game. Play the highlight of the game winner. Finally, we have to give a shout out to LSU quarterback Jaden Daniels, who left everything on the field and a 55-49 loss at Old Miss. The senior threw for 414 yards on 27-36 passing with four touchdowns while rushing for another 99 yards and one more score. He rallied the Tigers back from a 28-14 deficit, and his final TD pass put LSU ahead 49-40 before the Rebels scored twice late.
SPEAKER_05He was terrific. I mean he threw some incredible passes and dropped some passes in there that were just terrific.
SPEAKER_03And that's this week's list of top performers in the Heisman World. If you got any questions, comments, feedback, hit us up at pod at Heisman.com. That's pod at Heisman.com. Hey college football fans, tickets to the 2023 Heisman Trophy Dinner Gala are now on sale. The event takes place in New York City on Sunday, December 10th, the day after the Heisman Trophy Ceremony. The guest of honor for the gala is the 2023 Heisman Trophy winner, as well as the 50th anniversary winner John Capoletti, the 25th anniversary winner Ricky Williams, and the 10th anniversary winner Jameis Winston. Plus, we'll also be honoring the 2023 Heisman Humanitarian Award winner. Just go to Heisman.com to purchase tickets and witness Heisman history. Our first guest this week on the official Heisman Trophy podcast is one of the surprise players in the country. He started out in West Columbia, Texas, not far outside of Houston. He played in a wing T offense in high school and so was not highly recruited as a quarterback, and so he ended up at the University of Incarnate Word in San Antonio, Texas. After two stellar seasons, including being named the Jerry Rice Award winner as a freshman, and the Southland Conference Offensive Player of the Year as a sophomore, a year in which he threw for over 4,600 yards and 47 touchdowns. He entered the transfer portal and ended up at Washington State. He made an instant impact last year, throwing for over 3,200 yards and 23 touchdowns. Back for another year on the Palooze, he's off to a great start through four games, with 1,389 yards passing, completing 75% of his passes with 13 touchdowns and three rushing touchdowns as well. Most importantly, his team is 4-0, coming off a big win over a ranked Oregon State squad and getting ready to play UCLA in the Rose Bowl this coming Saturday. Of course, we're talking about Cameron Ward, quarterback for Washington State. Thanks for coming on, the official Heisman Trophy Podcast.
SPEAKER_04Thank you. Appreciate you for having me.
SPEAKER_03Congratulations on your big win over Oregon State. Your team is ranked uh 16th in the AP poll, and it looks like you made a really big jump from last year. Uh you offered a great start this season. To what do you attribute this uh this great improvement?
SPEAKER_04Um really to all the hard work that we have put in in the offseason. Um from myself, from the whole offense as a whole, from the defense. Um I feel like every each and every person on the team has you know just made tremendous improvements, uh, especially with the coaching changes that we had as DC and OC. Uh I feel like those two, those two guys, Coach Schmidt and Coach Butt, they came in and really implemented what they wanted us to do scheme-wise. Um just right now, it's just really all of us uh working together and you know, just trying to go win each and every Saturday.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about your journey. You started out at Columbia High in uh I'm sorry, uh is it Columbia High in West Columbia, Texas? Uh yes, sir. Okay. Not too far from Houston. I understand you played in a wing T offense in high school. Obviously, you didn't get too much of a chance to develop in that scheme uh your your skills as a passer. But what things did you take away uh from that offense?
SPEAKER_04Um the biggest thing I took away from that offense is three-step and five-step drops. Um, you know, that's something that, you know, even literally uh we were throwing the ball at my lily. So once I got to junior high high school, uh it was straight power, power eye, wing tee, you know, a lot of misdirection. Um but the biggest thing that I took from that is just three-step and five-step drops.
SPEAKER_03Right. What about like you had did you have to run the ball more uh in that offense too?
SPEAKER_04Um not really. I was able to have three good running backs at the time, uh, you know, but you know, they did a lot of the heavy lifting, you know, we would throw it a couple times a game, but you know, I really didn't run the ball that much at that time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So you went to FCS Incarnate Word and won the starting job as a freshman, and you had more attempts in uh six games uh in your first season than you did your entire senior season in high school. What was the key to your development as a passer, you know, between that senior year going into your freshman year?
SPEAKER_04Uh really just trusting the process. Uh, and it was and it was hard. You know, when I first got to the UIW, um, you know, me transition from a Wintie to air raid offense, that playbook, it wasn't it wasn't easy for me to learn. You know, it was a lot of days where I would just have to sit in a room and just really going through the bass plays before we even get to all the uh whether like the deep choice routes, all the you know, the deep post with the over routes. It was really more of me just focusing focusing on how to read four perts, um, white cross, all of that. So I really had to go with the basics for a long time before I got the hang of it.
SPEAKER_03Now you guys played in the spring, right? Because of COVID? Mm-hmm. Yes, sir. Did that help too because you had a little bit more time to sort of absorb the offense?
SPEAKER_04That helped for sure. Um, and that's why I believe COVID, you know, it wasn't good, obviously, for the country, but for in my situation, you know, it was good for me because it allowed me to, you know, compete for the start of job. Because if we would have played that fall season, I for sure wouldn't have been the start of UIW at that time. So, you know, it gave me a little bit of an edge on other quarterbacks because it allowed me, you know, learn the playbook more, learn how to set protections more. Um, so you know, it for sure, it for sure helped me get me ready for that spring season. Uh, you know, when it was time to play football, you know, I just let it all loose.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, definitely uh a little bit of a silver lining there. So by your sophomore season, you're just starting to put up dominant numbers for your team. You got you know, 4,600 yards passing, 47 touchdown passes. Was it this the point where you got really got a sense that that you could move up to the next level, to the FPS level?
SPEAKER_04Uh for sure, for sure. Especially after coming off, you know, uh a good freshman season like I had, I was able to win the Jerry Rice Award there as best um FCS freshman player of the year. Uh so I felt like at the time it was uh it was ready for me to move on my journey. Um, because the end of the day where I want to give a football, you know, a lot of a lot of scouts, a lot of people don't really look at FCS tape. Um so you know, I feel like it was right timing, and when I needed to make that decision, you know, everything worked out for the better.
SPEAKER_03The transfer portal has seen a few FCS players do pretty well in the FBS. What's the main difference between the two levels?
SPEAKER_04Um the biggest difference is just the O-line and D-line. Um and it's really the defensive ends. The defensive ends, they're way more athletic up here. Um they have they have better pass rush moves. They're every the biggest thing that I've learned is that every defensive end has a third down move. Um so you know the back end, the secondary, the running backs, all that, all that's the same as the FCS. Uh, I actually believe um FCS has more better skill present skill positions than FBS, in my opinion. Just being able to play with some of the guys that I did at that time in UIW, they can for sure start up here at a power five level. Um so you know, at the end of the day, it's all just becomes to, you know, whether uh at the end of the day just comes down to you know football, just 11 on 11 got to be better than the man you are in front of you.
SPEAKER_03Maybe between uh you and Tradur Sanders, you guys can be kind of the Pied Pipers uh for the FCS skill skill guys, you know. Um so what so what was it that drew you to Washington State?
SPEAKER_04Um really, really pullman to place. Uh so my head coach at the time, UIW, he ended up being an offensive coordinator here. Um so you know, that was a big influence on me coming up here. But as soon as I stepped on Pullman, you know, I'm from a small town, it has small town vibes. So, you know, it wasn't really anything too flashy about Pullman, and just it was someone rocking focus on football and focused on becoming a better man. Um that's why I feel like I've grown these past two years being here. You know, I'm just excited to be here and I've been blessed.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I hear a big reason uh that you chose Pullman was because it had a dairy queen and you're you're quite the dairy queen fan.
SPEAKER_04No, if you if you got a dairy queen in a small town, you're living right. I'll tell you that right now.
SPEAKER_03Are you also like a uh a Whataburger fan from in Texas?
SPEAKER_04Yes, sir, I am. I am. A lot of my teammates, especially RJ, you know, he says in and out burgers are better. I'll I'll agree on that. Uh it's just because he doesn't get the right stuff for Whataburger. You gotta you don't get the burger if you go to Whataburger, you gotta get, you know, the honey barbecue chicken chip sandwich, sub honey butter on there, get the honey butter chicken biscuit. You gotta get the off scripts though. You can't get the you know the first stuff that you see.
SPEAKER_03Well, you'll be in LA next week, and some people consider LA the hamburger capital of the world. Lots of great hamburger joints there, so uh you can try in and out at a bunch of other places potentially. Uh I noticed in this game against Oregon State, Josh Kelly. Well, you guys have a great connection. Uh and this, you know, he made some amazing catches in that game, and of course you put the ball in and just perfect places for him to catch it. Uh was this something that's been was happening in the offseason or or is just this suddenly developing uh in the in this one game?
SPEAKER_04Uh it's been happening since January, since he first got here. Um, you know, the things that not only that he did Saturday, what Kyle Williams did, you know, that's probably not even the most craziest thing that I've seen them do. I mean, the things that they did when they first got here in the spring, in the summer, even in fall camp, the catches that they've made, you know, I just got to put the ball in play. I just got to do my job. Um so, you know, there'll for sure be a lot more plays for him and Kyle out there just like that. Um, but those two guys, you know, they're they're real, they're real lean with me. Uh, you know, they were very patient with me first getting here. We had to get a lot of timing done. Um, but you know, the way they run routes, the way they can win versus men, you know, it's it's good for me to have receivers like that who I trust just like that to just go put the ball in play.
SPEAKER_03You certainly look really confident out there playing. Do you feel more confident? Like it's almost like you know, you had your your development has always been like you have like the one season of adjustment, and then your next season you blow up. And then you you know that happened at at uh UIW. It seems to happen at Washington State. You had a pretty good year last year, but but now you're off to a great start. Does is it just something where you you the game has slowed down a bit for you at this level?
SPEAKER_04Um I wouldn't even say it's slowed down, uh, because in my opinion, it's the same speed as the FCS level was. Um but I'll probably say the biggest thing from last season, this season is that we just have a a more mature team, in my opinion. Um, from myself, I've grown so much as a player in the film room, on the field. Um, the the people that I have around me in the offensive line, the trenches, they've grown so much a year ago. Um, the defensive line, who's the backbone on defense, you know, what they've done, RJ and BJ, what they've done for this program. So I just think we're just a different group this year. Um, you know, we're all playing together as one.
SPEAKER_03I uh I saw some highlights of you playing uh basketball in high school. Uh you seem to be quite the shooter. I I guess basketball was your first love.
SPEAKER_04Uh yes, sir. Basketball was my first love. Um, a big Kobe Bryant fan, my room at home. Uh I have a signed Kobe by Jersey, signed basketball by him. I have a big Kobe mural on my wall. Um so I was a big Kobe Bryant fan coming up. Uh I love playing baseball when I was younger. I didn't get to do that as I got to high school because I did so much travel AAU basketball. Um but you know, I'm a I'm a big basketball fan, but you know, football slowly, you know, took over.
SPEAKER_03Who's your team that you follow the most in basketball?
SPEAKER_04Uh the Lakers. Lakers for sure.
SPEAKER_03The Lakers. Always a Lakers fan, huh? What do you enjoy the most about playing college football?
SPEAKER_04Playing in front of 40,000 people, probably. Um Friday night lights in Texas, especially in small town, it can get it can get loud there. Um when I transitioned to my FCS, my first my first two years in college, um, we're only playing in front of, especially at home, maybe 5,000 people max. Um so I never really got to play in front of a pack stadium like that. Um in high school, I was able to take visits. Uh, you know, I went to Texas AM, see how loud their stadium got, go to U of H, see how loud their stadium got. Uh so it's always been a dream of mine to play in front of PAC stadiums. Um, you know, I'm excited to be living that out right now. Um so that's for sure probably the most forward things I'd be looking to each and every week playing in front of a lot of people.
SPEAKER_03What's been your most um memorable college football moment and and what and what game this year or or what setting this year are you looking the most forward to?
SPEAKER_04Uh my most memorable game um was against Lamar. My freshman year at UIW is my second start. Um I went, I had, I can't remember how many yards I had, but it's just one throw. I was rolling out to the right on like the 30-yard line, threw it all the way back across my body uh to my running back for a touchdown on a rope. Um so you know, that was probably one of my most memorable plays. Uh as far as this year, I'd probably say Josh Kelly played last last week for Zorgan State, where I just threw a stop route for you know 15, 10 yards. And, you know, he did the res breaking three tackles, racing to the end zone. So, you know, he for sure got the crowd hyped up on that one, but that's probably my best play so far this year.
SPEAKER_03Are you looking forward to playing in the Rose Bowl?
SPEAKER_04Uh yes, sir. Yes, sir. I'm real looking forward to playing it. I have some family members coming down from Texas. Uh I haven't seen them in a while, so it'd be good to see them after the game. Um, but you know, it's a lot of historic tradition at the Rose Bowl, and you know, we get to play on some nice grass, and so I'm excited for that opportunity.
SPEAKER_03There's been a long line of great Washington State quarterbacks. How much do you know about that great lineage up there in the Palouse?
SPEAKER_04I think I know enough. Um, you know, from Leaf, Bleso, Gardner, um, I got a chance to talk to Luke Falk, Brink, uh, you know, the quarterback tree here, you know, is is deep for sure. Um, you know, but at the end of my time here, I'm just trying to put myself up there up there with those guys.
SPEAKER_03Say you are a Heisman trophy voter and you're looking to vote for a quarterback and and you want to, you know, kind of differentiate or look for a quarterback and see what differentiates that quarterback from other quarterbacks, besides yards uh and touchdowns. What are the things you would look for to sort of you know find a quarterback that stands out?
SPEAKER_04Uh I'd probably say the biggest thing is that you got to watch the film. Um a lot of a lot of you know media outsources, they like to go off just statistics. Um, but I believe if you're gonna take a chance, someone you have to watch the film, um see how they can get through hard times, whether it's at their a fumble interception, uh, whether their defense isn't doing good, one game. I feel like you have to look at a person like that, how he responds. Um then also just the plays that they're making, whether it's with their arm, outside the pocket, inside the pocket, with their feet. Um so I think a lot of goes into it. Um, but you know, I'm for sure. If I'm grateful for the opportunity, you know, I'm just trying to put everything I can, showcase my skills on tape.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I noticed that you're you're really comfortable in the pocket, moving around, buying time. There's a couple plays against Oregon State where you had a ton of time because you had created that time and and really moved around really well. Um, what are some of the quarterbacks who who you think that you compare favorably to?
SPEAKER_04Um personally, I don't I don't really compare myself to anybody. Um, but I do like watching a lot of quarterbacks, especially in the NFL. I love watching Pat Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers, um, Tua right now, who's balling. Um Joe Burrow, I love watching him now, especially when he was at LSU at the time. Um USC right now, Caleb Williams, the Raymond Heisman Trophy winner, he's still balling out right now. He's playing good football. Mike Pennis at Washington, he's playing good football. So, you know, it's a lot of it's a lot of good quarterbacks. So you can turn on TV, you know, you see a show each and every day.
SPEAKER_03It's a long way to go, but if you were to find yourself in New York City as a Heisman Trophy finalist, uh, what would that mean to you?
SPEAKER_04Uh it'd be a blessing for sure. Um, you know, because not a lot of kids from where I'm from, especially a small town, will get an opportunity like that, uh, you know, especially in the journey that I've had. Um so you know, it's definitely be a stepping stone on my journey where I want to go playing football. Um, but it'll only be the beginning for me. You know, I'm never satisfied. I love working, I like being cultivated. Um, so you know, it'll it'll for sure be a blessing.
SPEAKER_03Did you have any uh personal goals before the season started?
SPEAKER_04Um personal goals this year is really be a Pat 12 championship. Um Utah the reign in Pat 12 championships are back to back, uh, you know, they have the title. Um so you know, if we can get an opportunity to play those guys, you know, I'm sure we'll take advantage of it. But personally, I'm just trying to win a Pat 12 championship.
SPEAKER_03Tell you what, that game against Oregon State was a great first step. Cam Ward, thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy Podcast. We appreciate you taking the time and we wish you. And your team the best luck.
SPEAKER_07Hi, this is Billy Steen of the 1978 Heisen Trophy winner. You're listening to the official Heisen Trophy podcast.
SPEAKER_03Boomer! Take an even deeper dive into Heisman lore by going to Heisman.com, home to all things Heisman, including news, bios, and the latest on all the winners, plus updates on the Heisman Trophy Trust and its charitable mission. It's the A-Z for Everything Heisman, from Alan Amici to Danny Werfel. We really need a Heisman winner whose name begins with Z. With the big game between Oklahoma and Texas coming up this Saturday, we thought it would be appropriate to not only have uh Billy Sims given a little boomer, as you just heard, but also talking to one of the great Texas football players of all time, 1998 Heisman Trophy winner Ricky Williams. The Texas tornado produced one of the finest seasons in college football history in 1998, rushing for 2,124 yards and 27 touchdowns. He broke Tony Dorsett's 22-year-old NCAA career rushing record, which has since been broken. But nevertheless, few running backs have left their mark on the sport the way Ricky Williams did. And we caught up with him recently. He was just hanging out on his back porch, his office, as he calls it, birds tripping in the background, and we hope you enjoy this interview as much as we did. Ricky Williams, 1998 Heisman winner. Thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy Podcast.
SPEAKER_05Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_03Well, first off, we got the Red River Showdown coming up this Saturday between your alma mater, the number three Texas Longhorns, and the number 12 Oklahoma Sooners. What do you think about the Longhorns this year and this big matchup that's coming up uh with the rival up north?
SPEAKER_05Well, it's been a really long time since we've been ranked higher than they have going into this game. And so I think that's a that's a sign of the times. Um, and I think this is this is probably the most excited I've been about a Texas OU game in over 10 years. So it's you know, we've been we've been knocking on the door, trying to get over the hump. People say is Texas back, is Texas back? At least at this point in the season, it seems like yes, we are back.
SPEAKER_03You actually went two, one-and-one against the Sooners in your career, including a 34-3 romp as a senior. Which of those games was the most memorable for you?
SPEAKER_05Um, memorable, not in a positive way, was the first one. You know, coming from California, I heard I heard about the Texas OU game, but I was like, what's the big deal? And then when we got on the field, we played Notre Dame earlier that year, so I saw big guys, but seeing big fast guys like it like the Sooners recruit, it was and then the way they played. I think I had 14 carries for seven yards. So not a not a positive memory. Um, it was kind of like a non-game for me. It's bad. Um, but we we escaped with the tie, so at least it wasn't a loss. Um the next season the next year, same thing, right? It was a tie, but it was the first year of overtime in college football. And so we played out of the tie and they beat us. And then the most um I think the most memorable and a positive was positive way was my junior year because we were three and seven, we were four and seven my junior year, which was obviously way, way below Texas standards. Right. But we we beat the we beat the Sooners and I had over 200 yard games. I mean 200 yards that game. So it was a positive memory, was that my junior year?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Let's go back to the beginning for a minute. Your early athletic career was very active and very, kind of like you, just a kind of well-rounded, uh, into liking to dabble in all kinds of things. You played football, baseball, you ran track, competed in wrestling and taekwondo. What drew you to compete in so many of these sports? Was it just the competition or was it just the interest and seeing what these things were like? Hmm.
SPEAKER_05I'd say neither. It was just the the necessity to be doing something that I can get better at every day. That was interesting, you know, because school, you can make the argument you can get better at school every day, but it wasn't very interesting to me. But going out and being able to compete, even when I started to wrestle, you know? Yeah, because I didn't know anything about wrestling, and the amount of of growth and change I got literally on a daily basis was uh it was so fulfilling, you know, just that feeling of getting better at something.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um, that that's it's kind of what I lived for.
SPEAKER_03So you kind of need to keep moving, improving, can't stay stagnant, right?
SPEAKER_05Exactly. You know, it's it's probably some proving, but I have this feeling like you know, we only have a certain amount of breaths, we only have a certain amount of days on the planet, and I want to use all it's football training. You know, a football coach says we only got three days to prepare for this team, we have to maximize every minute so that we are we are in the best situation to be victorious. Yeah, no, I just have that mindset where I only have so many hours on this earth, and I want to use as much as I can to improve to get better.
SPEAKER_03Which of those sports or activity was it was your was your passion, would you say? There's your number one passion.
SPEAKER_05Uh whichever season it was.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05You know? Okay. Even uh I mean, even though I played more football when I was wrestling, I I can't say I was more passionate about football than I was about wrestling. You know, I guess for me, if I'm gonna spend time doing something, you know, I'm gonna put all of like all of me in it. And so I think I have this natural connection between being interested in something and being passionate about it.
SPEAKER_03Right. And then all those things kind of ended up being a little bit complimentary, right? With wrestling, you learn about leverage and and you know, uh, and and baseball, just the general skill, you know, ball skills and hand-eye coordination, right?
SPEAKER_05Oh, you know, but baseball, what I learned most about baseball is how to fail. And you know, people will say that, you know, that hall of fame, hall of fame bait uh hitter, you know, fails 70% of the time. Um we say it, but the reality when you're playing the game and you're experiencing that 70% of the time failure, and that's when you're doing well, but when you're in a slump, you know, 80% of the time failure. Whew, I think I've hit 290, 211 one year. So, you know, it it taught it taught me how to handle failure. And when I say failure, it it's I think of it a couple of ways. One is anything that we become successful at, we had to have little failures in the beginning, right? And what the passion is what helps us um survive those failures and keep pushing on. But when the passion goes and there's just failure, it's not it's not much fun. And that's what happened with to me with with baseball, you know? Yeah, because I didn't I couldn't get enough at bats to get as good as I really wanted to be, because I was only doing it part time and then I would run back to Texas. Yeah. Um, and so and so when Coach Ditka, you know, when he drafted me and he said you got to pick one, um, it was easy. It was easy to choose football.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I kind of feel like it's sort of like golf, right? If you don't keep playing, you're just not gonna get better. You just have to keep doing it. Otherwise, what's the point?
SPEAKER_05Right. Exactly. Exactly. And if you keep doing it, it's like I said earlier, it's fun to watch, you know, the strokes come down.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So by by the end of your senior season at Patrick Henry, you're one of the most coveted running backs in the country. Tell me about your recruiting process. There's all kinds of stories about where you might have gone if this had happened. And but kind of give me the true the true lowdown about you know uh who really wanted you, where you almost went, where you could have gone, and and why you ended up at Texas.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you know, because I think I was like the third running back, like three or four in the nation. Um, pretty much could have gone. It's funny saying that, you know, looking back to high school, but I pretty much could have gone anywhere. Um, Notre Dame really wanted me. I and when I say really wanted me, places where I could see myself fitting in their system, you know. So Notre Dame really wanted me and I wanted them. University of Colorado really wanted me and I liked them. Um, USC, uh Texas, and then San Diego State, and mainly San Diego State because Marshall Falk had just left, you know. Um and you oh wow. And I guess so watching him going through high school, me going through high school, watching him play, it was like wow.
unknownSure.
SPEAKER_05Um, so yeah, those were the five, those were the five, and then I took a trip to Berkeley. Um, but the school, my the school I really wanted to go to was Stanford. Yeah. One because they're Stanford, and two because at the time that the recruiting process started, the head coach was a guy by the name of Bill Walsh. And so I you know, I saw myself as a fullback in that Stanford, in that Stanford West Coast offense.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_05You know, um, and then maybe moving to Telback later in my career. But that that was my vision. Uh Walsh left, and another offensive genius came on, you know, Coach John Makovic. Yeah. Man, his ability to s to scheme, to scheme the run game and the passing game. Oh, it was amazing. So, you know, I wanted to go to a team where the the offensive mind behind the team would find creative ways to utilize my talents.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um, whether I was playing fullback or tailback. And and really it came down to which coach could convince me, you know, that I would get a chance to to play. And Makavic, he I believed him when he when he said when he said what he said.
SPEAKER_03And of course, you came in, you actually started out at fullback with Texas, right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, my first my sophomore and freshman year I played fullback.
SPEAKER_03And a lot of tailbacks uh are guys who end up being tailbacks, they don't they don't necessarily want to do that, but you were you were pretty cool with that, right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, of course. I mean I just I just love football and I just really wanted to be on the field. And so getting the opportunity to start, and because so when I uh the plan when I signed with Texas was to play fullback for for one year and then move to and then move to tailback. Um, because there was a guy by the name of Priest Holmes um at Texas. But Priest tore his ACL in the spring in the spring game, and so he he took a medical red shirt and then play and then played my sophomore year, so it it postponed my moving to tailback. But I got to do all the single back stuff, and so I got a lot of opportunities to to learn football, and I got a lot of opportunities to touch the ball.
SPEAKER_03Austin, Texas, of course, is a you know really hot city right now, but in the 90s it was maybe just kind of becoming that. What was it? Did that draw you as well uh to uh to UT as uh just the the allure of what of Austin and and kind of the scene that was there?
SPEAKER_05The allure wasn't there yet. You know, I like to think kind of came after me. You know, but here's the thing, right? When there's something uh I call it a hidden gym, it's hidden until someone brings light to it. And I think of you know my senior year and all of the energy around Austin, it brought a lot of people to Austin for the first time in a long time. And I and it's it's such an easy place to fall in love with. And so, you know, I I consider myself sometimes a visionary, you know. I see things kind of before they happen, and so I think I just I felt it, I was on to Austin, you know. Uh coming from San Diego, I thought when I flew into to Austin, I would see tumbleweed rolling down the tarmac, you know, it's Texas, you know, yeah from the TV, from the TV shows, and you know, we fly in and we fly over the lakes and the trees and the hill country, you know, and it's it was December 17th. I got off the the plane, it was 72 degrees. All right. And I I just fell in love with it, you know. The the the countryside, again, the river, the lakes, uh, the people. Uh so yeah, it's a really special place. It's it's been changing, but still, it's still special, still got a charm to it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you finished fifth in the Heisman vote as a junior, and then going into your senior year, you came back. Was winning the Heisman a major goal for you going into that year?
SPEAKER_05Hell yeah, it was. So I I had four goals. Four goals. And I and I thought if I if I checked the box on the first three goals, the fourth goal will take care of itself. Okay. First one was to become the all-time leading rusher in college football history. The second was to become the all-time leading scorer in college football history, and the third was to become all-time leader in all-purpose yards in college football history. And I figured if I can check all those three boxes, it's gonna be hard not to give me the Heisman.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_05I took it hard that I finished fifth. I took it hard that I finished fifth and I wasn't invited to the ceremony in my junior year.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that was probably an oversight. I think uh you were just behind Randy Moss, another good player. Um I I like I like the attitude though. I like, you know, you talk to a lot of I talked to a lot of Heisman winners, and they're like, well, I don't I didn't really think about it, or I didn't didn't really, you know, worry about the Heisman. But I like I like that you come out and said, Yeah, I wanted to win it. And I I think that's refreshing.
SPEAKER_05That's why I came, that's why I came back. You know, when I was a baseball player, remember, and so my my dream was not to play in the NFL. My dream was to have the best college football experience I could possibly have. And so when I saw, you know, after my junior year, I led the nation in rushing and scoring, and I obviously had an opportunity to go to the NFL, and I was strongly considering it until one day I was sitting in John Bianco, our sports information director's office, and I was flipping, flipping through a college football sports almanac, you know, and I was just curious. So I flipped through to most rushing yards, you know, and of course at the time Tony Dorsett was number one, and I noticed that I was like three, you know, and I and I did the math and I said, if I do just a little better than I did this this past season, which is plausible, uh, I could be the all-time leading rusher in college football history. It was just like just that it was in reach, you know? Yeah. Then I flipped a couple of pages and I saw the touchdown leader, and I was like, oh wow, if I have the same amount of touchdowns I had last year, I'll be the have the most ever. Then I flipped over to all purpose yards and it was the same thing. And so just the fact that I was so close to making history, I just couldn't turn, I just couldn't turn down the opportunity to go for it.
SPEAKER_03That's really cool. You actually had a sense of of the history surrounding you and and and the place that you had uh you know in the record books. That's that's again not something that's that's very uh very common, I think, among players.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. It's Texas. So we're we used to have our um our study hall was in this room. It was called the tea room, and it was a Letterman room, and they had hundreds of black and white color pictures of all of the all-Americans and all the sports from Texas. And just sitting in that room every day and being surrounded by it, you know, I couldn't help but see. I, you know, at least I gotta have my picture on this wall one day.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Uh, you had three years with John Makovic, and then there was a coaching change, and sometimes that can be hard or or refreshing or are you know uh uh energizing. Uh, what kind of impact did the arrival of Mac Brown have on that senior season for you?
SPEAKER_05I kind of went through the spectrum of all of those, you know? Yeah. At first it was disappointing, you know. So before my last game, my junior year, you know, and again, I was leading the nation in scoring. I came out and I said if Coach Mac, because we were four and seven, I said, if Coach Mac of it gets fired, I'm going to the NFL. And I came out and said it. You know, I was trying to save my coach's job, but it didn't help. They didn't care. So he was fired, he was fired right after the game. And I was and I was heartbroken. Like I truly like appreciated and loved that that man. He he just was a like um not just a football coach, but he really cared about us growing and becoming men. And he taught me so much about the game. So it was, and I'm a loyal person, so it was really tough. And I remember the first day that Coach Brown came in to the to talk to the team, and I was sitting there with my arms crossed, you know, like I'm out of here, you know, who's this guy? Yeah, and and after, you know, he's a politician, he said all the right things, so I was even more mad, like, who is this guy? You know. Um, and so I was pretty much decided that I was going to the NFL. And he called me into his office one day. He said, Listen, he says, I know you're probably going to the NFL, but you've been around this program longer than anyone. You probably know the most, you know, help me. And so we spent maybe 90 minutes and me kind of opening up and telling him everything I thought was wrong with the team, what I thought we needed, how we could be better. And the next day, I started seeing him implementing some of my suggestions. The next day, you know, and and that was a that was a key moment. I really felt for the first time in my career empowered as a leader, you know, and not just a leader on the field because I was good, but that someone appreciated my ideas. Oh um, and then the following week I went to dinner with him and his wife Sally, and just watching the way they were with each other was kind of inspiring, you know. Um, and I think those two things and the opportunity to break those records, you know, it I I came back.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, you had an amazing year in 1998. You had including this incredible stretch, 318 yards and six touchdowns on 30 carries against Rice. And then you follow that, follow that up with a whopping 350 yards and five touchdowns against Iowa State, 668 yards and 11 touchdowns in two games. That has never been done in Heisman history. You know, of course, being a student of history, that's you know, you're just making all these historic marks left and right on this season, 2,124 yards, 27 touchdowns. Looking back and given the way football has changed, are are you amazed that you were able to put up that kind of production?
SPEAKER_05Um I wasn't at the time because I had put up, you know, I think my junior year, I think I had four back-to-back, I had four consecutive 200-yard games.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um, took a break and had another one. So I I was I was used to having really big games. Yeah. Um and the way Coach Brown was, like, he like he really like depended on me and he really put me in a position and gave me every opportunity to shine. And so I think the combin the combination of my confidence, my physical shape, and coaches, like Coach Brown's dedication to to getting me the Heisman trophy. Um and also reputation. You know, I was watching the film of that rice game a couple of weeks ago, and those guys were scared. You know, you could see they got a big running back coming downhill, running a 4-4. That's scary for a lot of people. And they would just give me the ball and give me a running start, and guys would just get out of the way.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Um, you know, the other thing that I want to say about that team and about that season, and this is, I think, why I love football so much, because it really is the ultimate team game. There's a play that they re-replay every November 26th, uh, when I broke the record.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And they they show the 60-yard run where I broke the record. And if you slow it, if you slow it down and you watch all 11 guys on that one play all did their job. The the play side receiver came down and cracked the safety. Even the backside receiver chased his man all the way down the field and pushed him out of bounds so that I could get into the end zone. So it's just one of those things where I was the star, but it but everyone on the team had to buy in and play their supporting role.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05That's what's rare. That's what's rare. You don't typically see that anymore.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. You are the most recent Heisman winner to rush for 2,000 yards, and now it's a rare feat uh in this day and age, even though they play more games than they did back then. And the game has changed a lot since then. What do you what do you think about the diminishing role of running backs in uh in football?
SPEAKER_05Um, in a way, I think it's a good thing. You know, I think one of the reasons that this conversation is going around a lot in the NFL, and one of the reasons is because running backs get hurt a lot, you know? And so the word diminished doesn't sound good, but a running back is always gonna be a key part of the game plan. You're always gonna have short yardage, you're always gonna have time where you need to eat times in the game you need to eat up the clock, and it's football. You always want times where you want to go hit someone in the mouth. In order to do that, you you need a running game. So I I think the running back playing a more specialized role and evolving to be more of a all-around player that can do things in the passing game. I think is good for football. I think it's good for the longevity of running backs. Um, so I'm a I'm a big fan of it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Uh looking back, what was the most memorable moment in that 1998 season for you?
SPEAKER_05It was a Nebraska game. You know? Um, I think similar, similar to Texas this year beating Alabama, right? When as a team that in, you know, we were like trying to break through to being an elite team. Yeah. But in order to be an elite team, you have to beat an elite team. Yeah. And in the mid to late 90s, Nebraska was probably the most elite team in college football. Yeah. And to go up to Lincoln and beat them and break like a 30-game home winning streak. Um, you know, it it proved we proved to ourselves that that we were that we were for real.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Was there a point in the season where you kind of sat back and said, you know, I think I think I'm gonna win it. I think I'm gonna win the Heisman. Um or I'm on my way, you know.
SPEAKER_05I mean, obviously, uh obviously, yeah, I mean the after the back to back 300 yard games, because those came off of we got I had a decent game against UCLA, but we got our butts kicked, and then we got destroyed by K State, and I didn't have a very good game. So that was a low point, but I was I responded with back to back. 300 yard games. And then after that, I felt like, okay, we got this.
SPEAKER_03And then, you know, by the time it was announced that you were going to be a finalist, at this point, it was it's going to be a coronation because you know you're far and away ahead of everyone else. So some of the pressure's off in that regard. And what was your trip to New York City like? And what are were some of your favorite memories from that that trip?
SPEAKER_05Um, Michael Bishop and Cade McNow. Those are those are my favorite memories of that of that trip. And we're s we're still friends to this day. Every time I see either of them, it's big smiles. And we only hung out for a night, you know? So it was it was a really it was a really magical, magical time for me. And hanging out with those with those two guys specifically was you know made it special.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about your interest in yoga and massage and holistic medicine and uh how you got into that?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it started quite organically as being a running back and carrying the ball, you know, 400 times a year. I had to be very creative and active and trying to find ways to recover. And so I tried anything and everything. And the things that worked best for me were craniosacral therapy uh and acupuncture. And so when I had some free time, I just was curious about why are these these weird alternative therapies so effective in helping me deal with all of this like brutality. And if I can learn this and figure out how it helps, uh I'll be in a position where I can help a lot of other people going through a similar situation. Um, and so I started talking to people and studying and you know, even went back to school to to learn more. Because you know, I tell football players, I say, one of the things that we don't hear people talk about is in order to be a warrior or to be a great football player, you have to learn to recover. Because if you're not healthy enough to get on the field at your best, you know, you're not gonna be able to perform at a high level consistently.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. What keeps you occupied the most these days? What what gives you your passion and your interests and and kind of like how in high school you had to do all these sports to keep moving? Like what keeps you moving now? What what what are the things that you're into?
SPEAKER_05Entrepreneurship, you know, because in the startup world, it's you have to do so many different things and you don't ever you don't ever know what's coming next. Um and so there's one part is like the business entrepreneurship of having an idea, putting a team together, how do we execute the idea? Like that's all fun, like football team stuff. Um, but more specifically, um my the startup is it's called Leela, and it's um it's an astrology app. So it's taking something that I've been studying for almost 20 years, um, and all the things I learned about team dynamics and being able to put them together to put something out in the world that helps people. So it takes all of the things that I'm interested in and it puts them all together.
SPEAKER_03Uh how do you spell it, Lila? Is it L-I-L-I-L-A?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you got it.
SPEAKER_03All right. And so so so if we wanted to if so is that is that app out now or is that in development?
SPEAKER_05It's out, yeah. We we um we just launched we just launched the paywall about a month ago. So yeah, it's it's on the Apple, it's on the Apple store. Um it's my baby. You know, I've I've spent the last five years putting everything into it and it's finally out, and people are enjoying it and using it. And nice. You know, I the it's a it's astrology, and people are like, uh, that's weird. But to me, it's I I call the app timely food for thought. That's nice, you know, timely food for thought. It's just, you know, sometimes like an example, okay? Like my wife is the kind of person where if she's really focused on doing something, you know, leave her alone. Okay. And so, right, and if she's going through a time where she's really focused, I'll read Leela and it'll say, you know, leave her alone. And it's just in the back of my mind. So, and if I'm excited about something and I want to share with her and I run downstairs and she doesn't even look up, you know, I don't get offended. I just go back upstairs and say, I'll just talk to her about it later.
SPEAKER_03Right. Well, uh um for everyone listening, if you are interested in uh Ricky Williams' app, Leela, you can find it on the app store and and all the other places you can get your apps. Uh I wanted to ask you a few more questions. I I asked the same questions of all the Heisman winners on the podcast, just a kind of a series of questions which we'll we'll bunch together at the end of the year. Uh what's your favorite Heisman moment by someone else?
SPEAKER_05Hmm. Uh Charles, Charles Woodson returning returning the punt uh against Ohio State. Because again, I was my junior year and I was hoping that I would get invited. Um, and there was a strong chance that we could be the first defensive player. And the timing, right? The timing of having such a big game.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. I think though those are right, those are the Heisman moments.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. Um, where do you keep your Heisman trophy?
SPEAKER_05Oh. Um keep it in the trophy room.
SPEAKER_03Seems obvious enough.
SPEAKER_05Got a got a bunch of trophies.
SPEAKER_03What Heisman winner were you most excited to meet when you went out to New York?
SPEAKER_05Uh the the one I was most most the Heisman trophy I was Heisman trophy winner I was most excited to meet. I met actually my junior year because he came to Texas. It was Bo Jackson. Um, and the Heisman winner I was most excited to see at the ceremony was Marcus Allen. You know, Marcus Allen is from San Diego, went to the same high school as my mom. Right. Um, and so that was a that was a special moment for me.
SPEAKER_03Describe to me your Heisman moment signature play and what happened on that play. Like what you think is like the one play that represents you, Heisman Trophy winner.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. So, you know, a little, I'm gonna geek out a little bit. So the thing with Coach Makovic that uh his favorite play to run was a counter. You know, we call it gap scheme. Everyone blocks down, you pull two people, and then the running back has a bunch of different lanes. Yeah, and that's probably my favorite, my favorite play to run throughout my first three years. Um, and then when Coach Brown came in, we ran a little bit of counter, a little bit, but mainly we were a lead team. You know, just downhill lead.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I had so many big runs on a lead, and I hit the hole really fast, my fullback got a good block, and I would just accelerate it so fast through the hole, like no one could catch me. And I would just like 60 yard, 50, 70 yard runs, a bunch of them, my junior and senior year. And so I got really good at running the lead play, you know, running straight downhill at people. And so the first quarter of the Texas AM game, it's Coach Brown just kept giving me the ball, just kept giving me the ball. And I and they had on the big jumbotron like how many yards I needed. So going into the game, I needed 72 yards to to break the record. Yeah. And I remember looking up um and seeing that I had 11 yards to go. And then there's this moment, one of those like numbers moments where my senior year I changed from 11 to 34. So I'm standing there in number 34. I'm looking up and I see 11, and I had this sense that I'm gonna do it on this play. And it was just a sense, you know? And like I said, I got the ball and everything just worked out. All of all 11 guys or all other 10 guys, they all did their job. And I remember the the corner came up because it's textbook, right? The the coach says to the receiver, okay, safeties are better tacklers than corners. So go block the safety, leave the corner for the running back. Yeah, okay. Call me our receiver, goes down, cracks the safety, the corner comes up, I get down and he bounces off, and there's no one there. And I'm just in the open field.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And I see the fastest, one of the fastest guys in college football was the opposite corner for the Aggies, and he had an angle on me. And so I'm thinking, I gotta score. I can't go down on the one, you know? And my best friend on the team, Wayne McGardy, was right behind him, blocked him, pushed him out of bounds, and I just barely fell into the end zone. So it was one because it was downhill and it was a lead play. I had to break a tackle, I had to show my speed, but more importantly, it shows that it's a team game. The receivers, everyone had to do their job.
SPEAKER_03It took 11 to get to spring the guy who used to wear 11. Um exactly. Who's the greatest with 11 yards left? Right, with 11 yards left. Who's the greatest Heisman? Was that the 11th game, too, maybe? Um it might have been. It was, I think. Who's the greatest Heisman trophy winner of them all?
SPEAKER_05The greatest Barry Sanders.
SPEAKER_03We get that a lot. That's that's everyone's favorite, I think.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Who do you think should have won the Heisman that didn't? Now, with no disrespect to anybody who did, not taking anything away from anybody who did, but who do you think, you know, if you can give an extra Heisman out to someone, who do you think should have won it?
SPEAKER_05Vince Young. You know? But again, we you know, the national if I think if they voted after the national championship game, Vince would have won. You know, just because there was so much hype around SC. Um, but if you just going back and watching Vince's junior season, goodness gracious, you know? Yeah, yeah. It was impressive. Impressive.
SPEAKER_03Who's the toughest player you ever played against and and why? Toughest player.
SPEAKER_05So there was um there's a safety that played for the Sooners, and that's part of the why, because those are big games. And those guys are like they recruit really big, fast guys. His name was Ghana Joseph. And I think up my sophomore and my junior year, we had battles. There's one play of my sophomore year where I was coming through the whole full speed, and he was coming full speed, and it was like a stalemate. You know, we kind of both hit and bounced off each other. Um, yeah, just safeties, you know, these kind of the safeties that come downhill when I hit somebody. Those those are always the ones you gotta watch out for. But you know, I will say, my I got one more. My my he didn't have a great he didn't have a great game against us, but as far as being all over the field, like in an impressive, I mean he missed a bunch of tackles, but he was there every play. It was Zach Thomas. You know, I was very fortunate, and Zach just went to the Hall of Fame, NFL, uh Pro Football Hall of Fame this year. And I got a chance as a freshman fullback to block and run against Zach Thomas.
SPEAKER_03Man, what's it like going up the up the A gap as a lead blocker going up against Zach Thomas?
SPEAKER_05You know, it was tough because I was a freshman, he was a senior, and yeah, you know, just had played more. So he was just like he was widely, you know, the way he would dodge blocks and anticipate plays. It was a lesson, you know? It was a lesson.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, uh, I I was talking to Archie Griffin earlier in the year, and I asked him, where was the strangest place that he's ever been recognized as a Heisman trophy winner? And he was at some play in England, and and someone recognized him there at a play, and he and he was you know shocked. And uh Danny Werfel told me that he was once hiking in the in the Rockies, and someone recognized him there. And so my question for you is what's the strangest place at which you've ever been recognized as a Heisman winner?
SPEAKER_05Like I was I was visiting a cathedral in Barcelona. And we were we were in an like a and like a we're going up like a winding like staircase, and there's a like an older couple next to me, you know, and the guy kept looking at me, you know, and he said, Did you win the Heisman Trophy? And I was like, Whoa, in a cathedral in Barcelona? I was like, Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's a good one. That is a good one. Okay, what would you be doing if you never played college football? Hmm.
SPEAKER_05I I I I'd have been a coder, I'd have been a software engineer.
SPEAKER_03Is that something you do uh on the side? Do you do it for fun, or have you tried to learn how to do that?
SPEAKER_05Well, yeah, so I I um you know I was always into computers, even back in the late 90s. You know, few people had computers, but I was always into computers. Um I didn't take any computer science classes, but you know, when I got into the NFL and I had a little bit of money, you know. I always had new computers, I was always learning computers. And finally, when I decided to create Leela, I realized that the developers don't know any astrology and I don't know any coding, so something's gotta give if we want to get this done. And so I I said, you know, I'll try to pick it up and see if if I if it's fun or if I can do it. And I fell in love with it. And so it's like it's how I spend all my free time, you know, because my whole life I've always wanted to be a creator. You know, you can say I can create plays, I can create space in football, but I mean like a creator, not just entertaining people, but creating something that people can use. And learning to code is giving me the ability to take ideas and turn it into something useful and practical for people.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, Ricky Williams, for coming on the official Heisman Trophy podcast. Keep doing what you're doing, keep having a good time on the planet, and we hope to see you soon. Okay, now that we're in October, we thought it would be good to touch some grass and get a little grounding and perspective from one of college football's preeminent writers and analysts. Stu Mandela of The Athletic. The Athletic publishes a Heisman poll every week. And this week it has Caleb Williams of USC number one, Michael Penix Jr. of Washington number two, Bo Nicks of Oregon number three, Brock Bowers of Georgia fourth, and Cam Ward of Washington State fifth. Stu, thanks for coming on the show.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_03Can you tell me a little bit about the Athletics Heisman poll compiled by Manny Navarro? Do you guys actually poll actual Heisman voters?
SPEAKER_00Well, we we polled the entire staff, and many of them are actual Heisman voters. We have quite a few of those. I don't think everybody, you know, it's 34 voters. I don't know that all of them are um official Heisman voters, but certainly people who cover college football nationally, um, you know, as their primary role.
SPEAKER_03Four of the top five vote getters uh in this latest poll are Pac-12 quarterbacks, with the league being in the last year. Could this end up maybe being one of maybe the big developing storylines in college football that the league is just going out in a blaze of glory uh in this area?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think it already is. They've got three teams in the top ten. Um you know, I think there might have been a perception coming into the season that USC was, you know, the class of the conference. Now I think people are looking at Washington and they're looking at Oregon and maybe even Washington State as as being in that tier. And then we knew going into the year that there were going to be um you know these great quarterbacks. Uh, I think the Colorado story and Shador Sanders emergence just made it that more, that much more pronounced, that it's just really rare for for this, as you know, this many guys of this caliber in one conference. The Pac-12 has certainly been known, you know, going back to when it was the Pac-10 as a quarterback as a conference that produces a lot of star quarterbacks, but to have this many at once is pretty rare.
SPEAKER_03It's interesting that they're all transfers, not homegrown guys at all. Brock Bowers is kind of lurking around at number four on this list. What do you think a guy like Bowers has to do to get to New York?
SPEAKER_00That's a great question. I mean, I think he's been the most unique player in college football for two years now. And if somebody wants to make the case he's the best player in college football, you know, I think that's a perfectly valid case, but it's just become so hard for um somebody that's not a quarterback to win this award. The quarterbacks just put up such um, you know, amazing statistics by the end of the year. And even somebody like Bowers is going to have game, you know, he had a huge game against Auburn the other day. He's gonna have games where he has, you know, four catches for 40 yards, whereas these quarterbacks seem to do it week in and week out. Um, you know, I think the thing he has going for him is first of all, name recognition. Um, the fact that Georgia will like we think likely will be in the playoff race right till the end, and no more stats in Bennett. So as you as you know, you're the Heisman expert. It's hard to separate sometimes um the quarterback from the guys who catch the passes. Um, I think one reason Devontae Smith broke through a few years ago, first of all, just an absurd season. But I don't nobody at the time thought Mac Jones was going to end up being a first-round quarterback. He was, I thought, kind of devalued by college fans that year. Whereas if it had been Tua or uh Bryce Young as the quarterback, it would have been harder, I think, for him to win the award.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's a great point. And also it's it's interesting with Bowers, you know, a tight end, it's almost like it's a little bit of a conundrum because like the more the better he does, the more defenses do to try to stop him. And and it's a little bit easier to stop a tight end than it is than is the quarterback because quarterbacks have a little bit more control over where the ball is going.
SPEAKER_00True, but nobody's really I mean, if you look back to uh first of all, these the last two games he's had over a hundred yards. Um, and what's always amazed me about you know, they've been in the national championship game the last two years, he was the undisputed star of the TCU game, right? Seven catches for 152 yards. Um, and then the year before he had a huge game in the SEC championship, though they lost that one to Alabama. So he's had some of his best performances in the biggest games. Um probably what hurts him a little bit this year is the SEC is not as strong. And so you're watching him do it against South Carolina or Auburn. Um they'll play Kentucky this week. Kentucky's ranked, but it's you know, they're not gonna play Alabama during the regular season. Uh, just not as many showcase opportunities as in the past.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, all great points. Now that we've hit October, there's just a swarm of big games coming up. You got Oklahoma, Texas this weekend, Oregon UW, and USC Notre Dame the following weekend, FSCU Duke, Washington State, Oregon. Could October end up being the proving ground for this year's race? Like whoever gets out unscathed has the advantage.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I think it'll probably thin the herd a little bit. I mean, when when, you know, that Washington, Oregon game is going to be huge. And you got two of the top three guys going head to head. So whoever wins is probably going to separate a little bit from the other guy, maybe not necessarily eliminate the other guy. Um, the trend I've seen over the last um what, seven, eight years since we went to the four-team playoff is that it ultimately comes down to the guys on the teams that are either that either make the playoff or are in the mix right till the end. So um, you know, if Oregon beats Washington but then ends up going nine and three, Bonix is not gonna win the Heisman. You know, it's which of these guys and which of their teams continue to climb um up until the end of the season.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Who's a player that not many people are talking about who you think could make a late break for the Heisman?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think in the biggest game this week, the OU Texas game, Dylan Gabriel has a shot to uh I mean Dylan Gabriel's been fantastic so far. He just hasn't um, you know, Oklahoma hasn't had a big game. So they're gonna go against Texas this week where Quinn Ewers is considered the Heisman candidate among those two teams. And if he outplays him and Oklahoma pulls the upset, you're gonna see him, I would assume, in this poll next week jump from one, he has one point uh total to top three, top four on the list. Big big opportunity for him.
SPEAKER_03You're a Heisman voter. What do you personally look at in uh a Heisman candidate when the season's going on and then as the season comes to its end? Are you does your criteria does your criteria uh sort of evolve as the season goes along depending on the context this season, or do you have a set criteria that you apply every year?
SPEAKER_00I think I'd be lying to say if I that I put as much thought into it week to week that as I do on the lat on the one that matters, right? It's kind of like the playoff, the only playoff ranking that matters is the last one. Um you know, I'd rather have the whole body of work. So I think just speaking for myself, the in-season ones are more about who's hot at that moment. Um and we're still early in the season, so even you know, Caleb Williams has been phenomenal, but it wasn't he already would have been number one on my preseason ballot if we had one. Um the later we get into the season, um, you know, I think it's the guys who produce in the biggest games. You're not necessarily tracking what Jordan Travis does every single week. But we all saw what he did against LSU, what he did against Clemson. Um so that that's kind of what happens during the season. And at the end of the season, I I and boy, I wish the ballot wasn't due due Monday at noon. You know, I wish you had like a whole week to really um dig in. But at that point, I'm looking at stats and I'm looking at you know um basically who had the most complete season from start to finish. Nobody plays amazing 12 straight weeks, right? But you know, you have some guys who were just phenomenal in the biggest games of the year. Um, or who had, or you in the other side, you might have guys who had a couple duds, you know, had great stats overall, but had a couple duds. So it's usually looking for the guys who were the most consistently outstanding throughout the season.
SPEAKER_03Finally, we've been kind of through this rodeo before with the returning Heisman winner, trying to match what Archie Griffman did. As you know, I've long been highly skeptical that it could ever happen again. But with all the changes in college football, so much chaos going on, so many foundations being jarred loose, doesn't it feel a little different this time? Like maybe this could be the best shot given what Caleb Williams brings to the table? And also, if Caleb doesn't win, can we really, really start to wonder if the possibility of a repeat Heisman is just too difficult for anyone to pull off again?
SPEAKER_00So I have an interesting theory on this, and I'll and I'll I'll see if you you give it any credence. Um it feels to me, it feels subjectively, like he's more on the path to repeating than any guy in recent memory. Like he's still pretty universally looked at as the best player and the biggest star. And I think NIL may have something to do with that. Caleb Williams is in commercials on your TV every week, right? Michael Penix is not. Uh Brock Bowers is not. Like it kind of reinforces the notion that he's the best player in the sport, right? He's the biggest star in the sport. That won't override if USC, you know, if USC's defense, which may be Caleb Williams' biggest obstacle, uh cost them several games. I don't think he can overcome that. But if it is like a tight race and it's him at the end of the year and some other quarterbacks, like I just feel he's kind of entrenched. He's established himself as the best player in college football, and there's just kind of weekly reminders of that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I mean, in a weird way, too, because there's so many different ways he can go, sometimes the fact that his defense isn't doing very well helps him a bit, right? Keeps him in games longer, keeps him going for touchdowns, and the pace he's on. My my question is if you're trying to pick a Heisman winner, and if USC is 10 and 2, and Caleb Williams has 55 combined touchdowns, how do you weigh that against a Heisman candidate on a team that's 12-0 and had a very good year, but maybe not a year for the ages?
SPEAKER_00That's a great question. I mean, what's amazing about Caleb is that right now he's he had a phenomenal season last year and he's producing at an even higher level this year. I mean, my gosh, 21 TDs and one INT through five games, that's insane. Um I think that uh you know, I I I think we'll just have to see. I mean, the last guy that I remember kind of fitting the scenario you said was Tim Tebow. You know, Tim Tebow won two national championships, but people forget the year he won the Heisman, Florida went nine and four. Um but he was like this season for the ages. Um I don't remember the exact number, but it was kind of like what you were saying some absurd number of total touchdowns.
SPEAKER_03He had uh 29 passing touchdowns, 22 rushing touchdowns, 51 total touchdowns at the time of Heisman record. And you know, the next year he got the most Heisman first place votes, but his year was clearly not as good because Florida's team was better and he didn't need to be as good and didn't wasn't relied upon. So but you know, yeah, and that's the thing.
SPEAKER_00You have to, it's just you know, the nature of it is if you're gonna repeat his Heisman, you have to do even better than the year before. And that's what that's what Caleb is doing so far. Obviously, yeah, his toughest games are still ahead of him. Um the Notre Dame game, everybody's gonna be watching that game. And I and it's not like if he has a you know, let's say he throws uh three touchdowns and and and one pick, right? Um that doesn't mean everybody's gonna be just oh, he stinks now. Uh I don't think that's the case at all. But you know, people nitpick and people love the new shiny thing. And yes. Um, you know, Shador up until the Oregon game was that, I think. Um I'm some I'm sure there will be another one here soon to come. But um the thing that usually hurts guys if their team stumbles or stumbles a couple times is that they just go out of sight, out of mind, because we're focused on the teams that actually have a shot at the playoff. I don't think that will be as much the case just because USC is such a high profile team and a brand, and um and whether they're winning or not, like they play USC and Washington back-to-back weeks in November. Everybody, unless unless one of those teams collapses between now and then, those are gonna be big games.
SPEAKER_03And they're all gonna get more than one bite at the Apple, right? So, you know, Oregon's gonna get Washington and USC. So if if Oregon drops a close one to Washington, they can come back, he can come back and rebound against USC. And saying with Penix, uh, he can come back and get USC. And and uh Yeah. And so I guess it's interesting because uh Williams, I I've always thought that like we talked about the the there's like this heavy burden on this repeat winner for most of the season, but I have this sense that as the further the season goes along and the further he is competitive, then then maybe it starts to get into this this grudging respect in the sense that going through this pressure to do it again suddenly becomes in itself its own attribute, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think you made a good point about um there everybody knows their defense is bad. And so when they win a game the way they did last week, it it only reinforces how important Caleb Williams is to USC. Like he they go as he goes, and um and so yeah, it kind of works to his benefit. You know, I look back at Bryce Young last year, and one could have made a similar case. He didn't have as many great players around him, so what he was doing was even more impressive. But once they lost, I feel like once they lost the second game to um LSU, he was done. And didn't it's not like Bryce Young suddenly was a not great player, he still was, but yeah, there's just when there's there's so many other options, and that's definitely gonna be true this year. I mean, I noticed just now that Drake May is not on our list at all, and he's um but he's has enough of a reputation that if he um they beat Florida State, for instance, um, he's gonna jump back up that list, right? Like there's just yeah, so many great quarterbacks around the country this year.
SPEAKER_03You know, I know I was gonna end it on that note, but but I thought of one more thing, and that is uh the guy who's actually uh the main guest on our show this week, which is Cam Ward of Washington State. Uh the factor of Washington State and Oregon State sort of being left behind, and and maybe the general, you know, there's this little uh, you know, there was the whole thing with um Pat McAfee and the little bit of disrespect with Washington State recently. And how much of a sentimental favorite could he potentially become if if Washington State makes a run at the at the conference title and and he puts up numbers that are within the in the same time zone as as uh some of these more well-known guys?
SPEAKER_00It's a good point. I mean, I feel like if Washington State, if if the Pac-12 wasn't going away and Washington State went 10-2 this year, that would be a pretty big college football story. Like they would be one of the better stories of the season. If they do it under these circumstances, it's a huge story. Um and which would bring that much more attention to Cam Ward.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03All right, these are all great things to look out for in the coming weeks. Stu Mandel of The Athletic, uh, great publication. I recommend everyone go out there and get a subscription. We appreciate you coming on the official Heisman Trophy podcast, and uh we'll uh see you out there uh on the road maybe some point. All right, thanks, Chris. The official Heisman Trophy podcast streams every Wednesday during the college football season and is hosted, co-produced, edited, and engineered by Chris Houston. Paul Goldberg is the executive producer and editor. Special shout out to Isaac Lohencron, and big thanks to the Heisman Trophy Trust and its executive director, Rob Whalen, and associate director Tim Henning. The official Heisman Trophy podcast can be found on Spotify, Apple Music, and anywhere you listen to your favorite podcast. You can also find clips of our show on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. Just go to Heisman Trophy.
