SPEAKER_02 0:03

Welcome to the official Heisman Tabby Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

And the winner is, here's your host, Chris Houston. Welcome to season two, episode one of the official Heisman Trophy Podcast. As the man said, I am your host, Chris Houston, aka the Heisman Pundit. The 2024 college football season is about to get underway. We are officially in game week. The first game of the season kicks off in Dublin on Saturday between Florida State and Georgia Tech. And once again, this is the place where you can follow along as we catalog the race for the most prestigious individual award in American sports, the Heisman Trophy. As always, we've got a great show on tap for you today. Pat Forty of Sportsillustrated.com is coming on the show to talk about all these changes going on in college football. We'll also talk to Tom Fernelli of CBSsports.com and the Cover 3 podcast and chop it up a bit with him. And finally, Jim Corcoran of the Heisman Trophy Trust will stop by for an update on the state of the Heisman and shed some light on the decision to reinstate Reggie Bush's Heisman Trophy huge story from over the summer. Now before we get to our guests, I just want to list some of the remarkable changes that are happening in college football right now. We're going from a four-team playoff to 12 teams. The national championship game will be played on January 20th. So with this first game starting this Saturday, we are on course for the longest season in college football history. The SEC has added Texas and Oklahoma. The Big Ten has added USC, UCLA, Oregon, and Washington. The Big 12 has added Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, and Utah. And the ACC has added Stanford, California, and SMU. Meanwhile, the Pac-12 is down to the Pac-2, Washington State and Oregon State. Nick Sabin, after 17 seasons and seven national championships, is no longer the head coach at Alabama. Taking its cue from the NFL, college football will now feature a two-minute warning at the end of the second and fourth quarters. Coaches will now be able to communicate with one player at a time through radio devices that are installed in helmets. And this year also marks the debut of the Snoop Dogg Arizona Bowls, the first partnership between an alcohol brand and a college bowl game. And after seeing Snoop Dogg at the Olympics, it is apparent that it is his world and we are just living in it. Now, despite all these tumultuous changes happening in the sport, there's one thing you can always be sure of. And that is that the John W. Heisman Memorial Trophy will continue to hew to the traditions that made it great. It will continue to be a regular season award and continue to honor the most outstanding college football player in the United States. So there's a lot of changes going on in college football. Some of them are going to be great, some of them we're probably going to have to end up tweaking. So if you start to feel a little bit disoriented, just know the Heisman is here. You can grab onto us and uh start feeling like you're on solid ground again. All right, well, let's get on with the show. We're here with Pat Forte, who is really one of the esteemed college football writers of the last 30 years. Uh started out the Louisville Courier Journal, uh, went on to ESPN, Yahoo, and then now at Sports Illustrated. Pat, how's it going? Thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy Podcast.

SPEAKER_04 3:32

Hey, happy to be on with you, Chris. Uh 30 years, gosh, it sounds like a long time, but uh the time has flown by. Happy to be with you.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Well, maybe it's 40 years, I'm not sure, but I assume it's around 30.

SPEAKER_04 3:41

So might be closer to that.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

So uh, you know, I think we're at an inflection point uh in the sport. There seems to be, this seems to be the year where all these incredible changes are taking place, conference realignment, NIL has just completely taken over the sport, recruiting, all those aspects of uh building programs, and then the playoff of course is uh expanding to 12 teams. Do you think this season will properly reflect what college football will be like going forward, or is this just sort of a testing ground to see where things are?

SPEAKER_04 4:13

Well, this is certainly a year where a lot of major changes come home to roost. Obviously, we're gonna see USC, UCLA, Oregon, and Washington play in the Big Ten. We're gonna see Stanford, California, and SMU play in the ACC. We're gonna see Arizona, Arizona State, Utah, Colorado play in the Big 12. And then, yes, as you mentioned, the 12-team playoff starts, which uh I think will exponentially fire up uh season-long interest for a number of fan bases there. Uh yes, the the NIL transfer portal landscape is has never been busier and more chaotic, I guess, than it is right now, more just flat out transactional. Um, so it's a lot of change, but yeah, I think this is probably a gateway to where we're also going. Um it's gonna be more like this. There's gonna be more uh significant change in five to ten years, probably more major realignment moves and perhaps other fundamental changes to how college sports is organized and operated, and whether football is its own entity away from the other sports or not? Uh there's a there's still a lot of moving tectonic plates, I guess you would say. We've we've been through many quakes, but there's more quakes to come, I think.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Right. Well, what I'm really curious about is the sport's popularity. We've seen the ratings, and the ratings have been good in the last couple of years. So is college football picking up more casual fans while maybe shedding the kind of the stronger diehards over the years. So, like maybe the overall plateau of popularity is increasing, but maybe the intensity uh as a result of all these changes, you don't have the same intensity as you used to. Is it you think that's fair uh analysis?

SPEAKER_04 6:09

Um, I that's a good question, a good premise. I you know, I can't say for sure there are fewer people that care deeply. I think there are more people that care casually. You know, I think you look at something like the Colorado phenomenon last September, where the ratings were astronomical for a team that wasn't even that good, but was entertaining and there was a you know this huge curiosity factor with them. Um, and I think that's one where you're pulling in a lot of maybe the casual viewers. Um, but even then, those were casual viewers who were willing to stay up until 2 a.m. Eastern time to watch them play Colorado State. You know, very true in the third game of the year. So uh, you know, college football remains a riveting spectacle for a lot of people. And yeah, I think the vast majority of the diehards aren't going anywhere. Now, this year I think will be a real test for some of that, where some of your West Coast fans are gonna be asked to be excited about UCLA playing Maryland or you know, Oregon playing Rutgers or whatever the case may be. And will they still, you know, gravitate to that, or is it gonna be like, you know what, this is not as much fun as it used to be when I would go into the office and banter around the water cooler with compatriots from Stanford about who was better. And you know, those things are gone now because we're not playing each other. Uh so I think that there will be some proof in the pudding this year of of what this new landscape, which is so dramatically different, does to uh to the long-term fans.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

College basketball fans are a bit more used to this because they have the one and done, so there's a lot of lot more roster churn in that sport. But college football fans I think are a bit different. Do you think it's in their nature to roll with these changes?

SPEAKER_04 7:56

I don't think it's in their nature. So I think that will be uh another interesting kind of litmus test is you know, virtual free agency, and even really a more chaotic free agency than the NFL and other pro sports have, because for now at least, the contracts, as it were, don't hold players in place for any time at all, other than one season. And so the churn I do think is not something the average fan necessarily enjoys. I do think there's, you know, for decades been an attraction to watching young people come into your favorite school and get better and grow up from age 18 to 22 and see them develop as people and as as athletes, and and how a program can kind of be built up cumulatively with with a group of players. And now it's it is truly um a churn unlike anything we've ever seen, and it's so much more transactional that I think maybe some of the emotional investment is going to be challenged in May Wayne there of like, hey, the the things that I liked are are no longer in place in terms of player dynamics. There's also gonna be an element that, you know, the the same people that enjoy picking a fantasy team in the NFL every year and changing that. This is the same kind of thing for them. Hey, you know, who are we gonna get this year? Who's gonna be our quarterback? Who's gonna be our running back? Who's gonna be our receiver? So, you know, it's probably gonna be different strokes for different folks, but it is a real challenge, I think, to the kind of the bedrock way that college fans have watched their football programs progress.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah, it is a bit of NFLization, and it's actually like a radical version of the NFL, right? Because if you're on the NFL, I mean players are getting paid, but they can go anywhere they want. Imagine if the NFL did that, you couldn't really do it. So do you think that just this whole revenue revenue sharing model, where maybe there's some kind of agreement that you have to stay two years or three years to collect, do you think that's something that's on the horizon?

SPEAKER_04 9:58

I do. Yeah, I think that I think college leaders certainly sense that one of the, you know, they they've been forced to this point, obviously, of the revenue sharing, but one of the things that they can do that would be appealing to the fans as part of it would be to build in contractually some things that lock in players a little more uh solidly with uh with specific universities. So I would expect that to be part and parcel of the new era starting in 2025 when we have this massive uh new influx of of player compensation. So um I think I think schools want it, fans want it, and I don't think players will necessarily be opposed to it either. They're gonna get paid rather well, I think, to be part of a program for two, three years if they sign a deal.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Moving over to the Heisman, how do you think all these changes are going to affect the Heisman Trophy race? Especially when you consider that this year, the second Saturday in December is December 14th, so it's a really late award show, and the following weekend is the playoff.

SPEAKER_04 11:02

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's everything's affected by the new schedule, you know, with the playoff, and the Heisman is certainly part and parcel of it. I think it's a pretty wide open year, you know. I mean, I I I think going into it, you could you could name off who knows how many guys that maybe have a chance at this. Uh, you know, I mean, you obviously you start with quarterbacks and you look there and you're like a Carson Beck from Georgia and Shador Sanders from Colorado, and then some other guys, you know, in the in the big the Big 12 is fascinating from a quarterback standpoint with Noah Fafita back at Arizona and throwing to Tedaroya uh McMillan, but also like a Cam Rising guy. If Utah has the year that they could have and they win the Big 12 in their first year, uh, and you've got a 25-year-old, sixth-year, seventh-year guy uh leading the way, uh, you know, you look at him as a possibility there. Uh you know better than anybody kind of how the Heisman formula works of you got to be a great player on a top five-ish kind of team. And so, you know, who's gonna be the guy at Ohio State? And they've got so many weapons. I here's my my kind of my dark horse uh avant-garde thought there is Caleb Downs, the transfer at safety, who they've talked about dabbling with at running back, yeah, and who I think might be the best overall player in the country. I guess it's you know, he had 107 tackles as a true freshman at Alabama, and you put him in there on a great defense and you get him some special teams action, you get him some running back action. Who knows? Um, you know, Travis Hunter is a two-way guy at Colorado as well, but you know, can he and Shadur Sanders both get votes? Um, I always I'm fascinated by the Heisman, and then you can think and think about it and talk about it and come up with lists in August, and then by mid-September, you're talking about three different guys.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Right. I mean, I as you know, I used to have these kind of rules about you know what governed all that, but I mean, those are pretty much out the window now because everything's different. You know, they've they've you know they've uh turned over the card table. So I'm really curious how how uh how the narrative about certain players is going to be couched versus, I mean, because so many teams are gonna be in the playoff now, what is the comparative value of a of a player, a quarterback example, leading his team to the playoff at 10 and 2 versus someone leading their team to a playoff at 12 and oh is that gonna be much of a difference, or will it be they both made the playoffs? Is this an equal achievement? Um is is yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:35

It's a great point. And the other thing is there's gonna be more football played after the votes are in. Right. Uh more games than, you know, at least games that matter, playoff games. And so, yeah, that that that that's gonna be an interesting kind of yardstick to to watch how that plays out.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yeah. And you know, I personally I know the the regular seasons is becoming a little bit less uh vital. Obviously, we're gonna have some nine and three teams uh potentially winning the national title. The Heisman is staying a regular season award. I personally think that it's the it's the the best of a uh a bunch of bad options because if you know a lot of people want to vote after the Bulls, and you're looking now at 16, 17 games versus 12 games, 13 games, and and that would obviously be a huge advantage. What are your thoughts on on that?

SPEAKER_04 14:21

Yeah, with with the number of games that are going to be played afterwards, it does kind of make you want to say, well, maybe we should push everything back to late January, February. But then I it kind of to me it does lose touch with the season. And we're I think we've got enough things that are somewhat diminishing the regular season that let's keep the Heisman as a as a regular season award. I'm okay with it. You know, it it it doesn't bother me. I it's an important award, no matter where you put it. Uh, but I kind of like the tradition in a sport that is abandoning many traditions. Let's let's have a December Heisman tradition. I'm okay with it.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Right, love it. So your top three candidates going into the year, and maybe you already talked about Caleb Downs. Is he your dark horse or is he one of your top three?

SPEAKER_04 15:11

Uh, I put him dark horse. You know, I would say Beck, Shadur Sanders, Jalen Milrow, maybe right now. Uh open to radical revision as soon as we start actually playing.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Right. And we'll be having Jalen Milrow on our next episode. Um Yeah. Uh it's it's kind of um, you know, since 2007, we're in this, we're in the spread quarterback era, right? And since 2007, Tim Tebow, you saw if you were charting a graph, you would see uh, you know, quarterback numbers here up to 2006, and then Tim Tebow brought it up to here, and then it's been like this, uh, going up and up uh every year since you pretty much the average Heisman winning quarterback is throwing for at least, you know, has a total offense of at least 4,000 yards, is accounting for at least 40 touchdowns. This seems to be an unofficial threshold uh beyond which you become Heisman worthy. How much farther can we can we go with this? Uh you know, it are we just gonna stay like this? Is it just gonna be spread quarterbacks uh from uh, you know, is it is it spread quarterbacks all the way down, so to speak?

SPEAKER_04 16:22

Uh it could be. Um, and that's you know, I I am one of those people I think I kind of try to look for non-quarterbacks because I think they've just come to dwarf everyone else in terms of the competition for the Heisman. And so I want to keep my options open as much as possible and look for you know, a receiver, a dominant uh defensive player, whatever the case may be. But somewhat by necessity, it's such a stat-based award. You know, it it is very hard to compare, objectively compare teams from 134 teams without using some of those metrics. And you know, Jaden Daniels put up numbers that that couldn't be ignored, and and so I think that you know that was a factor there. So they're gonna have the numbers. The quarterbacks are gonna have the numbers, unless they're for some reason, you know, as defenses are evolving and they're doing a better job against spreads, and maybe they can continue to curtail, you know, like the running element for quarterbacks to a degree, and and that changes things. But yeah, but I I I agree with you that I think you know, if if you're putting up 4,000 yards and running backs are doing less, they're getting fewer carries, and they're not, you know, a great running back season could be 1,300, 1400 yards where it used to be 1,800 to 2,000.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Right.

SPEAKER_04 17:38

Uh, that changes the dynamic there. And receivers, you know, you're playing four, five receivers at a time or during a game, and their numbers tend to get uh um distributed a little bit more. So I I think for the foreseeable future, it is a quarterback-centric, big number volume usage kind of award.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Yeah. And you know, there there are so many analytics available now. I've always wondered why they don't apply those analytics to offensive linemen, to defensive linemen, to linebackers, create new stats that enable voters to latch on to something that differentiates them or at least justifies a vote for them. Coaches, opposite line coaches keep those those grades pretty pretty uh pretty private unless unless they want to you know tell say somebody's doing well. Uh what do you think about that? Like maybe can can can someone go out there, maybe uh Sports Illustrated creates a metric for for uh uh you know how actually effective a defensive tackle is during the course of a game that's just beyond sacks. Uh you could because you see we you see a lot of generalizations. You took on double and triple teams, and that's just kind of the the rote thing to say about a defensive lineman to justify their value. Um, but there's got to be other ways to to show to explain to people who are maybe lower information observers of the sport how how these these um positions are so important.

SPEAKER_04 19:00

Yeah, yeah, I I I hear you. And I I I don't know what the answer is there. I Sports Illustrated does not have the research team for that, so sorry, it's gonna have to be somebody else. Um ProFootball Focus does a lot of work on kind of grading guys game to game, and I I admire the work they do, but I don't know whether you can sit there and say that's gospel, and I'm just gonna take what they said about this cornerback from Wisconsin and declare him he's the best defensive player in the country, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 19:31

There's just a lot of esoterica that goes into it, and I think some subjectivity that goes into some of that grading. Um, as soon as somebody has figured it out, let me know so that I can conclude more people, uh, more players in my Heisman consideration.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

That'd be awesome. We can get a drop-down menu for the for the linemen finally. So um on the stats. Let's switch it over to uh to an amazing event that just happened, the the Paris Olympics. Uh, you were covering them. Uh you have an Olympic background, your your children were all swimmers. Your daughter won a silver silver medal, has a great Katie Ledecki connection. Just as a as a bit of fun, there's been a lot of great athletes who've won the Heisman over the years. There's a couple obvious ones, but I'm curious as to who you think uh might have been potential Olympians or even successful Olympians if they had focused on that sport.

SPEAKER_04 20:24

Yeah, I the name that came immediately to mind for me on this was Bo Jackson because he could do anything, you know. Um now what sport it would be for Bo, I don't know, but he could pick one, you know, decathlete maybe, or yeah. Yeah, whether it's track or whether, you know, like a decathlon guy. I mean, yeah. I would that would have been fun to see him uh take a shot at that. Um OJ Simpson, you know, a great track athlete, pure speed. Uh, you know, there's probably been a lot of guys that were fast enough to at least be in the can in the conversation to be Olympic level fast.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:02

Um Davante Smith from Alabama probably had that that level of speed. Uh Robert Griffin was another one quarterback from Baylor who was an incredible all-around athlete. He could have been maybe a cathlete as well. I would look at him in that in that category. Uh it's fun to think about. Um, you know, there certainly have been plenty of of all-around athletes uh over the decades who, especially now when people get more specialized, maybe they didn't get as much chance to to play other sports, but but they could have.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Pat Forti of sportsillustrated.com, famous for the 40R dash, among other things. Thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy podcast, and uh hope to see you down the road.

SPEAKER_04 21:44

Hey, my pleasure, Chris. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

This is Ricky Williams, 1998 Heisman Trophy winner, and you're listening to the official Heisman Trophy podcast. The Heisman is handed out every December, but the history of the trophy lives year round at Heisman.com, home to the most iconic trophy in sports. Heisman.com tells the stories of all 88 of our winners and features news, bios, and statistics on all your favorite Heisman heroes. Heisman.com also highlights our Heisman humanitarians, the many charities supported by the Heisman Trust, and so much more. Make Heisman.com your first stop for all things Heisman. Joining us on the official Heisman Trophy podcast is Tom Fernelli of CBS Sports, one of the uh great college football writers. It's been there for a long time. He is the co-host of the Cover Three Podcast. You can find him at Tom Fernelli uh on Twitter. And he uh from what I remember, he used to we used to be colleagues at um CBS Sports. Uh he's Mr. Big Ten. And uh and that's why we're gonna talk a lot about Big Ten. Tom, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_06 22:55

I'm good. I'm good. I'm also very excited because yeah, we we worked together at CBS for a long time ago, and I've been there forever, but never since I've been there, even though I've been the Big Ten guy, have we had Big Ten rights. So the fact that CBS now has Big Ten rights, it's uh it's nice for me. I don't have to spend as much time on the SEC as I used to. Because I'm just not that I've got nothing against the SEC. It's just I'm far more familiar and comfortable with the Big Ten that I grew up in than I am in the SEC, where I, you know, I don't know if you know this about folks in the Southeastern Conference. They they tend to look at, you know, as an outsider if you're not from there, you don't know it.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, you know, it's kind of funny. I'm kind of curious what you think the fan base is, how they're gonna take these new alignments, these new conference realignments, combine with the increased NIL factor and the fact that no one knows who's gonna be on the teams or like the the casual fan is gonna show up at the game or watch the TV and say who's number 24? I don't remember that guy. How is that gonna shake out with college football? Um, because ratings have been up the last couple years, but it's sort of my theory that um while like the casual, there's more casual fans as a result, sort of like the way the NFL creates more casual fans with fantasy football. Maybe the hardcore fans are maybe going through some things right now. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_06 24:15

Yeah, I I definitely get a mixture of the two. Like when I'm just out and about and I run into people and I talk college football with them, there is definitely the more casual, like yeah, it's gonna be exciting. You know, you got we're gonna have USC versus Michigan, it's gonna lead to more big games. But you do like when I talk to actual Big Ten alums, there is some consternation about all of this. It's like that's they've gotten nothing against the new schools coming in. It's just it's like, well, I'm not I didn't I didn't grow up caring about USC games. It's like so if if you went to a Purdue, are you really that excited to watch USC come to town and kick your butt? Like, I mean it's it's one of those things.

SPEAKER_05 24:54

That's no fun.

SPEAKER_06 24:54

Yeah, but I I also think that it's gonna be very weird at first, but it's also one of those things that I think you're just kind of gonna get used to. Because I I not even that long ago, I think back to like when Rutgers and Maryland joined the league, I was very much in the what the heck are we doing here? Like kind of Rutgers and Maryland, but now I mean Rutgers just feels like a Big Ten school just by the way that they play, even though they're on, you know, they're in New Jersey and they're on the East Coast, and Maryland's still a little weird, but you kind of just accept that they're in it. So I don't know what the long-term ramifications are going to be. I think that for maybe some old school kind of alumni, it it's probably never going to be the same. But I also just think that's kind of the direction the sport is going, regardless of the realignment. I think that, like you mentioned, like the NIL and everything, the transfer portal, it is kind of tearing away at the fabric of what I think this sport has been built on for so long, in like the connection that a lot of fans had to the schools, whether they went there or not, like the ones who graduated from them or the ones who just grew up rooting for these schools. There was like a relationship that you had with players where if you followed recruiting, you'd you'd knew who these kids were in high school. They would show up at your school, and then you would kind of watch them grow up, and then they'd become seniors, and then they'd move on and do it over again with the next class. Whereas now, you this kid shows up, you have no idea. He might not even play, he might never play a game for you. He might sit on the bench redshirt a season and then it hit the portal and go somewhere else. So it does impact the relationship where it is becoming far more professional. And I don't know how that's gonna impact how fans view this sport down the road. It's gonna be an interesting thing to follow.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Yeah, we've kind of come full circle. When I was a kid in high school before the internet, I was talking to someone uh we uh I'd go down to the local pharmacy or and look for the magazine rack and find the Street and Smiths, and I'd like to look down the list of you know who the new recruits were on that who's gonna be on the team this year. Like, hey, that's okay, I'm gonna watch for that guy. It's kind of like that now. It's not it's probably even less, you know, it's probably less information uh to the average fan, you know. I and and so I'm curious how you think. Well, let's back up. All this chaos, one last year of the COVID year through it all, the Heisman's been pretty stalwart. It's been maybe the only thing left that hasn't been like radically changed. Um am I missing anything? Or do you think that's a fair fair way to depict the Heisman?

SPEAKER_06 27:23

No, I I think that's a very fair kind of way to look at it because it is the one aspect of the sport where it's always been, you know, the premier award for the sport. It's the one thing everybody talks about. Like, you know, you don't nobody spends segments on television talking about who are your bedneric award sleepers for 2024. It's always who's your Heisman sleeper. So I do think that is one of the common threads that still exists and will probably continue existing for quite a long time. But it's just it overall, yeah, it's like Dylan Gabriel will talk about like he's right now, like at a lot of places, he's the favorite to win, you know, the trophy this year, which makes plenty of sense because he's like been in this college for like 25 years at this point. You don't need to throw it in. He's got tons of experience, so it's weird if he's like to attend the Heisman Gallery.

SPEAKER_05 28:09

Yeah, he's like a perfect kind of Heisman candidate because of all the things you check off as guys who are getting the colour. Tickets to the gallery open at the public. And he started playing the 2018. What's good for years?

SPEAKER_00 28:20

He pays less for car insurance, you know. Yeah. Um, it's fascinating. I'm curious to hear what you think, how you think all these changes will affect the tenor of the race. Like the what new inputs are we gonna have as a result of conference realignment? More games potentially, um, and uh, you know, just sort of the perception of of how a player is helping his team.

SPEAKER_06 28:46

I do think as far as winning the award, like there's always been in some years, there are guys who just dominate like all season long, and it's like by by mid-October, it's like, okay, this guy's the favorite. Unless he falls off a cliff, he's going to win it. And that happens. But then there's also some years where that's kind of all jumbled. There's a plenty of contenders all equal, and it kind of gets to the end of the year, and it's like, all right, who has the best November? Who's probably going to end up winning this award?

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:12

I think there's going to be more recency bias in the voting simply because with how everything has been constructed, to where you know the Big Ten and the SEC have so many schools in it now, there is the expanded playoff, and November, the entire narrative is following the sport, is going to be around, you know, the at-large burrs, the buys. And I think that once you get to that time of the season, the player who is considered, you know, a Heisman candidate already, who plays the best and either gets that at-large berth or gets the conference championship, is going to have a huge like kind of boost as far as the voting is concerned, because that's going to be the name everybody's talking about. And that's just, you know, the way it typically works when it comes to when there's a close race, it's a lot of the times it's like, well, who played the best last week? And I think we're going to see more of that, which I don't know if it's good or bad. I just think that that's probably the way it's going to go for going forward.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Do you think the the realignment with the Big Ten and SEC, and there's obviously realignment with Big 12 and ACC? Do you think those two conferences sort of suck all the oxygen out of this discussion?

SPEAKER_06 30:14

Yeah, I I think like if you're a Big 12 quarterback, you better have an incredible season. Like you have to rewrite history for the most part if you're going to compete for nationally, just as far as the national perception is concerned. Because you're right, like writers from around the country are going to have most of their attention focused on the Big Ten and the SEC for all the obvious reasons. So if you're the quarterback, if you're Avery Johnson at Kansas State, let's use him as an example, who has a ton of potential, could have a huge year. You've really got to play well to get people to be paying attention to Avery Johnson's Kansas State game against Baylor or whoever the heck they're playing in November, especially if there's not like a playoff berth on the line for either school. So I think the ACC less so because they still, for now, have Florida State, Miami, and Clemson, and those schools kind of have that built-in brand and that following to whatever you think is going on in the ACC, people are still going to be paying attention to them on the national level. But I do think, yeah, it's the Big Ten and the SEC are probably going to win the majority of the awards, not just because of, you know, the attention that they get, but if you just look at the talent of the rosters, if you look at recruiting rankings, if you look at what happens in the transfer portal, if you look at the NFL draft when players are taken, most of the players are coming from the schools that are now in those two leagues. And I just think that while a Heisman Award is not a vote on who the most talented player in the country is, there's a strong correlation between talent and production. And far more often than not, the really good players are the ones doing the most producing.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Right, right. We're gonna see some rivalries go by the wayside, but what do you what rivalries, that's a tough word, what rivalries do you think uh are gonna emerge uh both expected and unexpected as the result of these two uh big huge changes?

SPEAKER_06 32:03

The funnest idea for me of a rivalry would be one between Michigan State and USC simply just because we get the Spartans and the Trojans and we can get some, you know, like homer Homeric trophies going on there. But I I do think that Michigan and USC is kind of a natural rivalry already, even with all the kind of space between them. When you look at the history of the programs and just like the academic prestige of the schools, I I just think that there's enough in common between them that when they start playing on the field, like a lot of rivalry is born out of being similar to somebody else, but you're just on a different side of the fence. So there's a lot of similarities between the schools, and now they're gonna be competing with each other on a more regular basis. And I think that that's gonna lead to a natural rivalry. I think Oregon and Ohio State, just based on their approach to the sport, is grounds for a rivalry. And then in the SEC, it's really nice. I mean, it's not a new rivalry, but it's nice to have Texas and Texas AM going at each other one more time to get that back. But I think if I look at Oklahoma and they have their old rivalry with Mizzou, which is nice to be rekindled. But as far as new schools, we've seen them play in recent years, and they're gonna be playing again recently in the next few seasons, too. I just look at where the programs are in the pecking order of the SEC, and I think Oklahoma and Tennessee are gonna be in a lot of battles to where like at-large bursts are on the line, or maybe trips to the SEC championship game. So I think like the one thing, if it's not similarities, it's always gonna be stakes.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 33:31

And I think that those two, when they play, there are gonna be a lot on the line for both sides that are gonna lead to a lot of hard and angry feelings, and also some begrudging respect, which is a perfect combination of things you need for rivalry. So those are the ones I'm looking at specifically as being a I would say have a high likelihood of forming in the near future.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Yeah. Uh I'm kind of fascinated by how all this is gonna shape up with the the narrative of the Heisman race, the statistics. Um I the the Heisman's still gonna be a regular season award, but what interests me is the player who plays the 17 or 16 games or whatever it is, the platform for the next year, is the player who throws for 6,200 yards because they played that many games gonna have this extra boost going into the following year if they happen to come back.

SPEAKER_06 34:17

Oh, for sure. Like I I'll go back to Tennessee. We were just talking about it. Nico Yamaleava, former five-star prospect, got a big bag in the recruiting world when he came to Tennessee. He's taking over as a starting quarterback in an offense that over the last few years, under Josh Heipel, has produced quarterbacks that put up astounding numbers. We saw it with Joe Milton, we saw it with Hendon Hooker, but he can't go to the NFL after this season. He's got to stay in college for one more year. So if he has a huge season, Tennessee gets in the playoffs and has the extra games. Like you're saying, this is a kid who could throw for like 6,000 yards and 50 touchdowns. And if whether it's like a Carson Beck or a Dylan Gabriel or somebody else who wins the award this year, those guys are all heading off to the NFL in all likelihood at the end of the season. Nico won't be. So yeah, I think that for sure there are going to be guys who are able to get a head start, at least as far as building the buzz and the campaign early for going into the next season. Where like if Nico has that kind of year, like, look, go back to last season. Caleb Williams had the incredible season, wins the Heisman, comes back to USC for another year. And I thought Caleb was gonna win back to back because I'm sitting there thinking, well, if he does the same thing he did last season, how are you not gonna give him the Heisman? But of course, USC didn't have the same success on the field, which then led to Caleb kind of being written off a little bit, even though he still put up good numbers. So there's always going to be that aspect to it too. But he did have that kind of head start going in just because of the name recognition and the numbers he put up.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Right. You're a Heisman voter, right?

SPEAKER_06 35:42

Well, I am, thanks to you.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Yeah. Okay, well, you know. Um so I here's the thing. Um, do you think Heisman voters or the people you talk to who are Heisman voters, do you think they're wise enough to I mean, I think they're wise enough, but do you think they're wise enough to know that 6,500 yards passing came in 17 games and to and to like think about the averages and the reason why and sort of adjust for that? Or is it just one of those things where that that stat is just gonna imprint in the same way things happen in branding and marketing all the time that influence us in subconscious ways? Or or do you think the people you know who vote uh and yourself, do you think uh it's something you're gonna you're gonna delve into and and sort of figure out that, hey, we need to look at the the context of all these things?

SPEAKER_06 36:31

Well, speaking of like the process I go through personally, yeah, definitely I will have context to these numbers because I just like when I put together my ballot, it's painstaking. And it's one of the you know, you can vote for three guys, and I one of my thing is always, God, I wish I could vote for 10, because there's always that many guys who I feel like are deserving of consideration, and then trying to whittle that list down to three, I feel like I'm just picking nits after a certain point. So for me, it's a painful process. And I know a lot of my fellow voters that I'm close to go through a very similar process and trying to figure it out. So I I think it's a case-by-case basis where for the most part, that kind of the statistical analysis or whatever you want, the analytics or however you want to put it, I think it's become more prevalent in the sport, both among the way the sport is covered and with the people who cover the sport. So I do think we are seeing more of a trend in the voter or the the body, the voter body of moving in that direction for being a little bit more critical, a little more contextual with the numbers, but there's always still gonna be some voters who are just more of a casual kind of, oh my God, that guy threw for 6,500 yards and 60 touchdowns, he's gotta be the best player in the country.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Right.

SPEAKER_06 37:43

So I think we're heading in the direction where context is gonna matter more. And I also think that once the 12-team playoff era becomes more prevalent, and then it becomes the 14 and the 16. But once that happens and we start seeing more games, then yeah, it's gonna become more of a per game kind of basis as far as looking at guys, but I think that will take some time to adjust, but I do think that is the direction we're heading in.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Right. We're on the Heisman Trophy podcast with Tom Fernelli. Tom, we had some big news over the summer with the reinstatement of Reggie Bush. What were your thoughts on the whole matter with Reggie and and the fact that he's now back in the fold?

SPEAKER_06 38:17

I was very happy. I mean, I I just regardless of everything that goes on with like the decision to take it away, what happened while he was at USC that led to it being taken away, you look at where the sport is today, it makes sense because now with the NIL, it was just kind of strange to look at that and say, well, we can't, we can't, you know, Reggie Bush didn't, we can't really call him a Heisman winner. But more than that, it's just when I think of my life as a college football fan growing up, and I think about the players in the history of the sport who were just absolutely phenomenal superstar, like, oh my God, I love watching this guy play football and the highlights and the accolades and the winning national titles. Reggie Bush is one of the greatest college football players I've seen play in my lifetime. So, from that aspect, just purely as a fan, I was happy to see him get that trophy back. And I'm happy that when we get the ceremony going next year, Reggie will be able to be on that stage as far as the former winners that are sitting there welcoming the new winner and all that stuff. Because I mean, he is truly one of the all-time greats. Like, I if you're, I don't know, you know, like some of the listeners, viewers, like how young you are, maybe you did not get a chance to see Reggie Bush playing at USC, go to YouTube, look up the highlights because he was insane. Some of the stuff he did. I mean, he it's him, it's like Vince Young, it's Cam Newton, it's these kind of guys from my generation of growing up with where I just think of if I'm putting like a Mount Rushmore of college football players together, Reggie Bush would be on it. So I'm thrilled he's back with his, he gets his trophy back.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Kind of amazing. Almost 20 years later, the the impact he's had and how he still looms over the sport. Looking at this year's Heisman race, give me some of your give me your top three favorites and and a dark horse.

SPEAKER_06 39:59

I think I I I when it comes to trying to figure out the favorites, first of all, we gotta start with the quarterback because more often than not, the quarterbacks are gonna win. And then now in this era where the playoff is so important, you got to look at quarterbacks on teams that are gonna be competing for national titles. So, with all that in mind, I think Carson Beck has to be the first name that comes off because he's a very good quarterback. And I think the one thing that gets lost is that the team he plays on is so talented that you you saw Georgia win two titles with Stetson Bennett, and then Carson Beck takes over, and you kind of write it off and you say, Well, Georgia doesn't really need a good quarterback to win a national title, but they have one. Like he's he's an NFL quarterback, he's probably gonna be a first-round pick. So you put him on that team, surrounded with that talent, surrounded with what they can do. You gotta thank Carson Beck. I love Quinn Ewers at Texas in that offense because I think Steve Sarkeesian is a very good play caller, and I think he takes advantage of what Quinn Ewers' strengths are. Like, I don't know what Quinn's future is in the NFL as far as his arm strength and all that stuff, but what they ask him to do at Texas as well as the receivers that they have around him at a very good offensive line, and they've suffered some injuries at running back, which hurts, but I still think they're gonna be pretty dang good on that aspect. He's gonna have the numbers, he's gonna be in the big nick games, he's gonna have a chance to build up the hype. And then I know like right now Dylan Gabriel is the favorite at a lot of places, and I like Dylan Gabriel, and I think he is probably gonna put up the numbers to be in the running, but he is not my third favorite. I actually like Jalen Milro at Alabama because he's at Alabama, so I think he's gonna get the attention. But like he's also like as a dual threat, like he's an exciting player, and I think that that always kind of plays as far as gaining votes and gaining that kind of you know attention and notoriety because he can make big plays. He could like the Johnny Manzel effect from a few years ago. A play can completely break down, and he has the ability to make something uh spectacular out of it. So I think that always helps. And as far as dark horses, I mentioned Nico at Tennessee. I would have to consider him one. I mentioned Avery Johnson at Kansas State earlier. I said he would have to have a huge season. I think that's still truly the case. But another name that I haven't heard mentioned as much, who does not have the experience in the starting kind of, you know, he wasn't a starter last year because the guy he was behind on the depth chart won the Heisman Trophy. LSU's Garrett Nussmeyer. I know we haven't seen him play a lot, but from what I have heard from LSU coaches and from guys who in the recruiting game who have covered him and followed him for years, this kid has a big-time arm and he has big time talent, and we have seen what can happen in that offense. Now, obviously, Malik Neighbors and Brian Thomas being gone will impact that, but they still have other solid players on that offense. They probably have the best offensive line in the country. I know they have the two best tackles in the country as far as a tandem is concerned, and I think the defense still kind of stinks.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

So that helps him, gets them on the field.

SPEAKER_06 43:01

Exactly. We saw last year Jaden couldn't take fourth quarters off because they needed him on there to go put up 50 or 60 points on somebody to win games. Nussmeyer could be in a very similar situation. So for me, I think he's an excellent kind of dark horse contender to win the award because he's at the program with the brand name. He's gonna be in an excellent offense, and he's gonna have to be on there for four quarters. So I think he's an excellent player to just keep an eye on.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

He could just blow up that's very interesting. And it's funny you bring up that point about Daniels because and Caleb Williams earlier, because Caleb Williams' defense was too bad, and Jaden Daniels is just the right amount of bad, you know. So you can't have it too good, which is which is what I worry about with uh um with Beck, you know, and uh some of these other guys. But we're actually gonna have both Garrett Nesmeier and Miller Moss on the show uh very soon to talk about replacing a Heisen winner. We have one of those years where there are two players replacing a Heisen winner. Of course, Lincoln Riley's had a situation where his replacements one Heisman's. I was going to ask you which of those two, obviously you might have already told me, I guess, which of those two has the best chance of following in the footsteps of their immediate predecessors.

SPEAKER_06 44:11

I mean, if Miller keeps throwing six touchdowns a game like he did in the bowl, I think Miller's got a great chance to win the Heisman. But I I would go with Nuss. I I I just think that overall the ability like we talked about earlier, like LSU's defense or USC's defense was too bad for Caleb last year's, and LSU's was just right. I think right now, LSU, we're still in that situation, whereas I I also think, you know, Miller Moss is starting, but they did bring in Jaden Maeva out of UNLV as a backup. And I think you give Lincoln Riley the benefit of the doubt whenever it comes to quarterbacks and being able to put up numbers. But I think right now Nussmeyer is the guaranteed without a doubt to know duh starter at LSU. And there's still a chance Miller could lose the starting gig if he gets off to a slow start or if he gets, you know, just he gets injured. But I will say I I interviewed Miller at the uh Big Ten media days. I was very impressed by him. Like I wasn't sure what I was going to get because I wasn't all that familiar with him outside of the bowl game. He's a very impressive kid, he's very confident, and he's got pretty high goals for himself this year, so I wouldn't write him off.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Okay. Looking at uh your specialty, the Big Ten, who do who do you see coming out ahead in that in that race?

SPEAKER_06 45:18

You know, there's the part of me that feels like we're writing Michigan off way too easily. Like I mean, they won the national title, and I get it, because I mean Harbaugh's gone, he takes the entire staff with him, JJ McCarthy is a top ten pick, he's gone, like Korm's gone, the entire offensive line is gone. But like they might not have been a top five recruiting team year in and year out, but it is not as if they weren't bringing in talent. And we saw last year on that offensive line, they suffered a bunch of injuries, and it didn't slow them down. We don't know who the quarterback is, but the main critique of JJ McCarthy last spring when it came to like the NFL draft was well, he hardly ever threw the ball. We don't know what he's getting. So how important is the quarterback really to Michigan? So I think we're writing them off a little too easily, but I still don't think they're gonna win the Big Ten because I just look at the rest of that league. And Ohio State, top to bottom, is probably the most talented team in the country. Their defense is phenomenal. They were able to retain and keep a lot of those kids just from going to the NFL who could have gone to the NFL. And then they bring in a guy like Caleb Downs from Alabama at safety, who like in Jim Knowles' defense, that position is so important. So to get like a five-star who might be the best safety in the country and just kind of put that cherry on top of the Sunday means that defense is going to be phenomenal. Right. Offensively, I'm not entirely sold on their offensive line, but that was a problem last year, too. But I do think that having Will Howard back there, even if he's not a tremendous talent upgrade on what Kyle McCord was, his mobility will help them a whole lot. Getting Quinshawn Judkins being able to, like, they're gonna have Chip Kelly, you get those running backs, you get Will Howard. The run game's gonna be fun to watch. They have outstanding receivers. And as far as their competition, I would look at Oregon. But the thing is, as talented as the Ducks are, and I think that offensive line, defensive line, they are phenomenal. I think they have good receivers, Dylan Gabriel. We've talked about plenty of experience. I just, it's always weird for me to just look at a team who's entering a new conference who has to learn 15, you know, new opponents. Whereas it's like the teams that are playing Oregon have to learn Oregon and maybe one of the other new Pac-12 schools. Oregon, USC, UCLA, Washington, they have to learn everybody. So you put that in there, and it's just getting to know the league, getting to know the places you're playing, trying to figure out the travel schedule. I don't think it's gonna like any of these teams are gonna lose three or four more games because of it, but it might mess you up just once. And I think that if you look at the Ducks, as talented as they are, I have to put Ohio State ahead of them simply because of the familiarity Ohio State already has with the league. But I do think they're probably the second best team in the league, and I think that's what the records will show at the end of the year. But I'm gonna give the edge to the buckeys. But it really is like Matt Rule said at Big Ten Media Days, he's like he thinks they can get four teams in the playoff, and he caught a lot of heat for it, but I also think it's true because the thing about the Big Ten this year is you look at the top four right now, which are considered Ohio State, Oregon, Penn State, and Michigan, and then USC is the fifth best team. But I do think that right now, unless like we have to see proof of concept with that Trojans defense. Like I I know Lincoln Riley's completely overhauled the defensive staff and good because he had to.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Right.

SPEAKER_06 48:22

But until we see it on the field, it's hard to just give them that benefit of the doubt. And I do think that after those four, there's a pretty decent gap between them and the rest of the league. So I think the Big Ten does have a decent chance to get all four of those teams in. It's just of them. Oregon and Ohio State are the only two I look at as teams that can win the national title, and I think Ohio State wins the Big Ten.

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Tom Fernelli, uh Cover Three Sports Podcast, CBS Sports, friend of the pod, thanks for coming on the Official Heisman Trophy Podcast, and we'll see you down the road.

SPEAKER_06 48:52

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

Thanks so much for tuning into this week's Official Heisman Trophy Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please take a moment to like, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support helps us reach more listeners just like you and keeps us motivated to bring you great content each week. Don't forget to follow us on social media for updates, behind-the-scenes content, and more. Any other feedback or questions, just email us at pod at Heisman.com, that's pod at Heisman.com, or drop me a note on x.com at Heisman Pundit. Did you know that the Heisman Trophy Trust has donated more than $20 million to a huge variety of charity-based groups via its Heisman Trophy Fund for Youth Development? That's right. The fund has helped countless charitable organizations that uses sports to engage underprivileged young people in educational activities. If you are part of an organization or know of one, that would like to apply for funding, visit Heisman.com and click on the charities link at the top of the site. This is Mike Shizhevsky, and you're listening to the official Heisman Trophy Podcast. We're here with Jim Corcoran, one of the key members of the Heisman Trust, who's very much involved with the Heisman Trophy ceremony and process. Jim, thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 50:02

Chris, great to be here. Uh getting ready for college football to start again like everybody else.

SPEAKER_00 50:08

Yeah, it's that time of year again when uh when Saturdays are booked. Um, it's been a very eventful summer for the Heisman Trust. Their uh, of course, the biggest news has been the reinstatement of 2005 Heisman Trophy winner Reggie Bush. This was obviously uh something that has sort of been an asterisk uh uh for a few years. Uh we're curious what was your thought process, what was the trust's thought process when it came to deciding um how to finally resolve this situation?

SPEAKER_03 50:40

Well, you know, Chris, uh we've been closely monitoring uh, you know, all the you know enormous changes that have been taking place in college football. The landscape has changed, uh, including the uh Supreme Court decision in 21, which questioned the legality of amateurism, as you know. And it's opened the door to a totally new new world, whether it's name, image, and likeness, uh and also uh the recent proposal to remove the cap on education-related payments. So just the total landscape, Chris, has changed, and the trust thought it was time to get together and and and and make a change.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

How do you guys uh decide on something like that? Is is it a voting process? Do you guys get together in a locked room and and sweat it out until you come up with uh the the the idea or it's it's get together and it's uh it's a vote by the trustees.

SPEAKER_03 51:40

And uh, you know, there it it really wasn't any question. Uh it's been a long time coming. Um you know, with the landscape changing, um you can go back and people do their own research. Uh you know, how are college football players, college athletes these days, how have they been paid, were they ever paid? Uh you know, what what happened to get them to become ineligible? And you know, I we all got together and we just thought it was time. We thought Reggie had paid his dues, and more importantly, the landscape. I think if you go out there, I think that's why you you saw a good reception to the announcement of uh giving Reggie back his trophy. Uh so many people, when they talk about college football and they talk 2005, they definitely know who the best player was. Uh and we just thought it was time, uh the right thing to do, to give Reggie's trophy back.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Yeah, absolutely. Now tell me what this whole uh process was like as far as you guys made the decision. Who who is it who's whose idea was it to then call Reggie and give him the news? Or who who who was given the tax?

SPEAKER_03 52:51

Well, you know, our president, Mike Cummerford, uh reached out to Reggie's team to let him know. Um and uh, you know, it was it was overwhelmingly approved by you know the many trustees and almost all, I think all of the all of not all of them, but maybe all of them, all the former trustees, they were really uh welcoming Reggie with open arms to bring him back in. Uh he can't wait. Uh you know, Reggie had an obviously not only a great college career, but he had a great pro career, and he has his own foundation. He's done a lot of great things to help others. So I think it'll be a great opportunity for people to learn and learn a lot more about Reggie Bush and what he's all about. And uh we look look forward to having him back on the dais uh with the with the greatest fraternity in the world, the Heisman Trophy winners.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

You guys all got together down in Florida uh when this announcement was made, and you all sort of had a little powwow. What was describe to me the emotions in the room and amongst the different various winners and and and how they uh reacted to uh to the news.

SPEAKER_03 54:03

Now you'd have loved it. It was we did a little get together down in Florida, and we had I don't know how many former winners there. Maybe there were 15 former winners there, but we were kind of off in a private room. Uh you know, brought him in, his eyes were open. Uh, and Mike Cummerford got up there and made a speech to uh welcome him back. It was there were tears shed and there were hugs, and so many people happy to have him back in here. Um it was exciting. I think uh Reggie'll, when you talk to Reggie, uh he'll give you some really good feelings of how great it felt. He was very emotional.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

We're really looking forward to talking to Reggie Bush. Uh, it'll be a great uh guest to have on our show. Is Reggie planning on coming out to the ceremony this year and and taking part in the uh the fun things like the Nissan Heisman House?

SPEAKER_03 54:58

I I believe he is. You know, it's uh we're lucky enough. I don't know, uh Chris, like uh the I don't think the world necessarily knows it out there, but you know, the Heisman uh presentation that happens on TV when he gets the award on Saturday night, we end up throwing a uh a black tie dinner. I think we're moving it to a brunch this year, moving it up because as you know, the expanded college football playoffs, there's probably going to be a number of contenders that are gonna have to get back to their teams right away. But the rest of the world should know that you know they can come to this event. And when they do, you're just buying a ticket. It's a charitable donation because we're a 501c3. And uh, you know, the people that get to come to the dinner get not only bird's eye view, sometimes pictures taken, autographs of, you know, on average, we have 25 to 28 former Heisman trophy winners that are up on the dais.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

You know, one of the things I really loved about the decision uh to bring uh Reggie back into the fold was because because the Heisman is is the institution in college football that has probably changed the least over the years. It's maybe the only institution left in the sport that is uh not going through catastrophic change at the moment. And I I like how, and because of that, there's also this reputation, uh fairly or not, for for for moving with deliberation and and and all due process. And I think that and I think that the Heisman Trust uh showed some great true colors in this regard by showing it could be flexible, showing it could change, showing it's not necessarily uh invested in being stuck uh in the past and and moving forward. Uh is that was that something that you guys thought about as well? Oh, very much so.

SPEAKER_03 56:51

You know, I we're not here to you know re-litigate the allegations that were against Reggie uh and the NCAA at the time. But uh you know, his his conduct uh did not, yeah, or alleged conduct, I should say, uh in 2005 does not warrant a lifetime banishment from the Heisman family. And you know, as a trust, we are uh very confident that reinstating the trophy to Reggie is the right thing to do, and it is not gonna diminish uh the value of the trophy uh or its well-earned reputation for integrity.

SPEAKER_00 57:32

Yeah, I think it it came out very well. Did a lot of the other Heisen winners uh feel the same way? Did they feel maybe a little bit more connected to the trophy now that uh Reggie's back into the fold?

SPEAKER_03 57:44

Yeah, I think, you know, I I think a lot of them obviously I told you it was a very emotional time when we were surprised him and gave it back to him. But you know, and it looked I can tell you this, doing this for I don't know, this is my 25th year, Chris when these Heisman former winners come back for the event, and the world should know this, they come back, they're there to support the newest winner that's been chosen to come in and receive the Heisman trophy. But you can see it, you can feel it, they're all reliving what it was like when they received the trophy. And whether it's five years ago, ten years ago, or in this case, we're gonna celebrate Archie's 50th. It feels like it was yesterday because it doesn't go away. And if you ask them all, every one of them to the T will tell you no matter where they go and what they do, they'll always be introduced as the Heisman Trophy winner.

SPEAKER_00 58:44

I just want to talk about Heisman weekend real quick. It looks like this year, with all the changes in college football, uh the ceremony, the weekend surrounding it's gonna be a little different, like you mentioned, potentially going to a Heisman brunch uh on the Sunday after the ceremony. Um but yeah, it's it's uh what kind of uh going into the future, do you see this year as kind of a uh a little bit of a testing ground to see what works and then and then tweak it again going forward and maybe build some new traditions?

SPEAKER_03 59:13

Yeah, that's it's a really good question, Chris. We've been we've been tweaking it a little bit from the last 20 years that I've been on the dais working with them. And uh, you know, it started off as a as a four-day uh you know, Thursday night private winner, private dinner for the just the former winners and the contenders, this year's contenders, followed by Friday night, uh obviously our hosts uh and our sponsors, Nissan and ESPN, uh doing a special thing for their people, and then Saturday the telecast, and then Sunday a big dinner. You know, the you know, we we feel that that's a great time of year, as you know. It's it's after the season ends and it's before the bowl games. Um so but you gotta keep tweaking it. I mean, I ask you and I ask the rest of the country. I think they're waiting to see where will this college football playoff go? You know, I think it's exciting uh because the talent is really uh morphed across the country. There's a lot better players than there used to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

For sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:24

Um, and I even think that opens the door up for, you know, you've always had talks, you know, will you ever see a Heisman winner in the next 20 years come from a smaller school? And that's kind of tough. They're not playing the they're not playing the top 20. Um, you know, would you ever see a D2 or a D3 player? Probably not. Uh uh, but you'll get, you know, as you know, you get players coming out of there every year that turn out to be great players in the pros. So no, absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

And you've seen it, we've seen in the past guys like uh Gordy Lockbaum and uh uh uh Joe Dudek mentioned their names in the Heisman, without a doubt. I personally uh hope that the Heisman, so right now the Heisman's the last man standing uh in the college football pantheon. Uh the the conferences have shifted. Um the uh you know the bowl games are are pretty much uh not even uh you know players don't play in the bowl games. I love the fact that the Heisman is still a regular season award, and if I had my druthers, uh the Heisman would remain that. And and I hope I hope that the even if the impetus uh from outside influences is to move it after bowl games, I hope personally that the Heisman stays a regular season award. So we keep that one tradition. Because one good thing about keeping at a regular season award is that everyone plays the regular season, not everyone plays in a playoff.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:50

Chris, you are 100% on it. I think that I mean, if you if you were talking to somebody from one of the top four schools, they would say, well, wait a minute, look what he did in the final in the in the you know in the SEC championship game.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

And I'm like, Right, but that's but that's the great thing about college football, is that is that the the whole the whole premise of college football is to be able to argue about this thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:14

And you know what's Chris, you know what's even better? Sorry to interrupt, what's even better is at least I think, because being a former athlete, you you sit here and you look at it and you go, so what do we do? Every year we bring in four or sometimes five candidates. And those five candidates obviously are coming from bigger schools, but almost all of them are playing in a bowl game. And how great is it when you got you know Alabama playing Georgia and the two candidates were are playing each other. Now it's not a regular season game, but you know, you may have the Heisman Trophy winner that came from LSU and Daniels, and they're playing, they're playing, you know, Auburn for the title, and there's somebody coming from their side. So um I think it just adds something to those playoff games, but I I personally I think the trust feels the same way. It's a who it's whoever played best during the season.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

Absolutely. Well, it's gonna be an exciting year with the Heisman Trophy and with college football. Let's uh close it out by telling me a little bit about what the Heisman Trust does and what its mission is.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:25

Oh, that is that is really great. I love when you asked me that question. Um, you know, as I said earlier, we are a charitable organization, um, and our mission is to grow the legacy and preserve the integrity of the Heisman Memorial Trophy. Um our goal, I got it memorized, is to harness the power of the Heisman Trophy's legacy of athletic excellence to positively impact our nation's youth and provide more equitable opportunities for underserved communities. In all, just to let you know, I'm on the charitable giving committee. Uh, we give away uh somewhere somewhere in the vicinity of three to five million dollars a year. It's been going up every year. Um, and we've given to you can go on our website, Heisman.com, and you can see all the charities we give to. Uh, we also support the former Heisman Trophy winners and their charities. Uh, we also every year give out the Heisman Humanitarian Award that we feel that someone who is that meets the mission of what we're doing uh and has done really good things in our lives. And you can take a look at all the former Heisman uh humanitarian winners, you know, pick your poison, and it's not necessarily football.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:53

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful to quote uh Lawrence Welk. Jim Corcoran. Jim Corcoran, thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy Podcast. You are indispensable to uh the Heisman's uh success and its mission, and we appreciate you coming on.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:07

Chris, keep up the good work. Good luck with the season this year, and uh let's see who uh who steps up and becomes the Heisman winner this year.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:14

We'll check in with you soon. Take care.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:16

Thanks, Chris. Have a great weekend. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:18

Well, that's gonna do it for this week's show, the first episode of the second season of the official Heisman Trophy Podcast. We sure hope you enjoyed it. Next week, we will have Alabama quarterback Jalen Milro, also USC quarterback Miller Moss, and LSU quarterback Garrett Nessmeyer. So long, everybody. The official Heisman Trophy podcast streams every Wednesday during the college football season and is hosted, co-produced, edited, and engineered by Chris Houston. Paul Goldberg is the executive producer and editor. Special shout out to Isaac Lohencron, and big thanks to the Heisman Trophy Trust and its executive director, Rob Whalen, and Associate Director Tim Henning. The official Heisman Trophy Podcast can be found on Spotify, Apple Music, and anywhere you listen to your favorite podcast. You can also find clips of our show on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. Just go to Heisman Trophy.