The Heisman Hopefuls Podcast
The Heisman Hopefuls Podcast, hosted by Heisman historian Chris Huston, features year round interviews with top Heisman contenders, insider stories from Heisman history, hard-hitting discussion of the latest college football news plus updates on the Heisman Trophy Trust’s charitable work. New episodes every Thursday. Follow @HeismanTrophy on all platforms and watch clips on YouTube and TikTok. Contact: pod@heisman.com
The Heisman Hopefuls Podcast
Kansas State QB Avery Johnson
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Kansas State Wildcats quarterback Avery Johnson, a rising star in college football, joins the podcast to discuss the Wildcats' impressive start to the season, his close friendship with running back Dylan Edwards, and the comparisons to NFL star Lamar Jackson. Johnson also shares why K-State fans are some of the best in college football. The podcast continues with college football expert Phil Steele, who talks with host Chris about his legendary career, the story behind his famous 5-point font, and the unpredictable nature of the college football landscape. We wrap up the episode with Sharon Cohen, Founder and CEO of Figure Skating in Harlem, who shares the inspiring work her organization is doing to empower underserved communities in New York City through the sport of figure skating.
The Heisman Hopefules Podcast streams every Thursday during the college football season and is hosted by Chris Huston. The pod is available on all streaming networks, including Spotify and Apple Music, and full videos of the show are available on YouTube, with clips on TikTok and Instagram.
Email us at pod@heisman.com for feedback and inquiries.
Welcome to the official Heisman Shoopy Podcast.
SPEAKER_04And the winner is, here's your host, Chris Houston. Hey everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the official Heisman Trophy Podcast. This is episode number five for season two, and we appreciate you listening. We've got yet another great show for you today. Kansas State sophomore quarterback Avery Johnson is our featured guest. We'll be talking to him in the A Block. And if you think that's exciting, we have college football legend Phil Steele coming up after him. We're going to talk about all kinds of topics in college football. And then we're going to close things out with Sharon Cohen, who is the CEO and founder of Figure Skating in Harlem, which is an amazing charity that the Heisman Trophy Trust is very proud to be a part of. We've been used to, in recent years, seeing very dominant teams plowing their way through the schedule. Doesn't seem like we have one of those this year. Same with the Heisman race. We've seen players in recent years put up extraordinary numbers rushing and passing. And maybe we still will have one of those players this year, but it seems less and less likely as you scan the horizon. But I think this is a good thing for the Heisman Trophy because I think there's going to be a lot more mystery when it comes to who's actually leading the race for the trophy. Scanning a list of players from the traditional powers that typically dominate the Heisman race, there's no single player monopolizing the discourse. And again, this is a good thing, I think, because it might mean that a team that has not yet won a Heisman might win a Heisman this year. And that's why it's so exciting doing this show because we get to highlight the best players in college football week in, week out. And while appearing on this show does not constitute an endorsement on our part, it still could be that one of these players emerges as the Heisman favorite down the road. As it turns out, the player who was the tentative Heisman favorite going into last week got hurt. That's Quinn Ewers of Texas. And luckily for him, the reports are that he won't miss more than one game, most likely. But still, this might have a big impact on the race. So it helps to provide a little context as to what he's up against. The Heisman gods can be very fickle. Indeed, only five players in history have won the Heisman while missing at least one game during the season. Florida State's Charlie Ward was the last Heisman Trophy winner to do so. In 1993, he missed Florida State's ninth game against Maryland after injuring his ribs in the eighth game against Wake Forest. In 1986, Vinny Testaverdi of Miami missed his team's final regular season game against East Carolina after falling off his motor scooter on the way home from a team meeting. In 1979, USC's Charles White nursed a shoulder injury that caused him to miss the entire second half of USC's season opener against Texas Tech, and the entire second game of the season against Oregon State. And then Texas AM's John David Crow in 1957 hurt his knee late in the first half of the season opener against Maryland, and then missed AM's next game against Texas Tech. He managed just three plays against Missouri the following week before leaving the game. Technically he missed just one game, but in reality it was more like two and a half. And then Angelo Bertelli of Notre Dame, 1943, played in the first six games of the 1943 season and led the Irish to an undefeated start before Uncle Sam called. He was called off to the Marine Corps and eventually fought in the Battle of Iwo Jima. The six games was more than enough for Heisman voters who overwhelmingly chose him over Bob Odell of Penn. The four games missed by Bertelli remain the most games missed by a Heisman winner in a single season. So the point of all this is that you never know which way the Heisman race is going to twist and turn, and staying healthy is very, very important.
SPEAKER_00Hey guys, this is Barry Sanders, the 1988 Heisman Trophy winner, and you are listening to the official Heisman Trophy podcast.
SPEAKER_04Our first guest today is one of the most exciting young players in college football. He is a sophomore quarterback for the Kansas State Wildcats, who incidentally are ranked number 13 and are 3-0 so far this season. He's an extremely talented and skilled dual threat quarterback. So far this season, he has 490 yards passing, along with six touchdowns with one interception, 187 yards rushing. He's very nimble and fast. He is 6'2, 192 pounds from Wichita, Kansas. Avery Johnson, thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy Podcast.
SPEAKER_03Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_04Congrats on the big win over Arizona last weekend. You showed out with 156 passing yards, two touchdowns, plus 110 yards on the ground. Arguably your most complete game as a Wildcat, especially considering the ranked opponent. Has the game started to slow down for you a bit? And how comfortable do you feel out there now on the K-State offense?
SPEAKER_03For sure. Just being able to, I think that was my fourth start. And just the experience I've been able to have in all those starts and being able to learn from things I've done in the past definitely allows me to be more comfortable out there. But just continuing to find ways to get better each week and continue to elevate my game to just be able to put out a better product whenever I step on that field.
SPEAKER_04You know, you've shown you can sling it, but you've yet to throw more than 31 times in a game, and that happened uh last year in the bowl game. Is that more of an outgrowth of the system you're in, or do you think you're going to get more opportunities to really air it out as the season goes on?
SPEAKER_03I think we'll have more opportunities. We've just kind of been um our first game, our first two games, we weren't very good on third down, which takes a lot of plays out of the game. And then last game, uh, we only get one drive in that first quarter, three drives in the first half. So it takes a lot of plays out of it. I don't really feel like we've played um the maximum amount of staps or like the regular amount of staps that are that as allowed in a game so far. So just continuing to um just make it the most out of the opportunities I do get and um not miss whenever I do get those chances to push the ball down the field.
SPEAKER_04You traveled to BYU on Saturday. What has Coach Kleiman told your team about playing in hostile environments like Lavelle Edwards Stadium?
SPEAKER_03He said it's gonna be really loud. That was the big thing we've incorporated crowd noise into our practices this week. Um so just being able to handle that and winning on the road is is hard, especially um in the Big 12. So just being able to go down there and get after them early. Um they're a disciplined team, they're a sound team, and they they're a really good football team. We're both 3-0, so I'm excited to get out there and compete against them.
SPEAKER_04Last year against Texas Tech, you rushed for five touchdowns and a breakout performance. Have you ever rushed for five touchdowns before? And how much did that boost your confidence as a player?
SPEAKER_03I I don't think I've ever ran for that many touchdowns in a game, so it definitely boosted my confidence a lot just being able to perform at you know on one of the highest stages and be so successful. Um, but obviously continuing to just just find ways to you know make my run game better um and and continue to grow as a passer this year.
SPEAKER_04What excites you more to rush for a touchdown or to pass for one?
SPEAKER_03To pass for one.
SPEAKER_04Your mobility as a quarterback really does set you apart though. So how do you strike a balance between being that dual threat and then making calculated decisions to avoid unnecessary risks when you are running the ball?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um just being smart, knowing, you know, situations um and knowing like, you know, how much time's on the clock, what's the score of the game, being able to take all that into consideration when you do run the ball, and just if getting an extra yard is worth it here and there, or if getting down and protecting your body and being safe and stuff like that. But um I kind of find myself sometimes in a little bit of a gray area just because you know I want to make that home run play on a run sometimes and try to make a guy miss. So um sometimes I don't always get down and sometimes I don't always get out of bounds, but that's just kind of the cost of doing business whenever um I I run the ball sometimes.
SPEAKER_04Right. Seems like quarterbacks are always working on refining their mechanics. So, what aspect of your throwing motion or your footwork did you focus on improving in the offseason?
SPEAKER_03Um the biggest thing was just movement in the pocket, being able to always have my cleats in the ground ready to throw. And it's really hard to simulate um live pocket movements. The best uh practice at it is in the game. So um I've got uh a bunch of upside in the offseason on being able to move, get my feet in the ground, reset, and be able to make throws. So now it's just kind of um having that translate to games and being able to put that on tape.
SPEAKER_04Kansas State has a rich tradition of developing quarterbacks. Going back to guys like Michael Bishop and Colin Klein, who were both Heisman finalists, by the way. Your style of play fits right in with Klein's, especially. You're both hard-nosed and athletic. And Klein coached you last year, and you know, the way you set up blocks when you're running reminds me a lot of how he did it. What did you learn from him about being a Kansas State quarterback in your in your one year with him?
SPEAKER_03Really just you know how much of a competitor he was and and how much he gave to his team. He was a great leader and would do whatever it takes to win a football game. And um, I try to model myself in that way, just whatever it takes. If I have to run for 200 yards or throw for 200 or whatever it might be, um whatever it takes to get the win on Saturdays, that's what I would do for my guys.
SPEAKER_04Coming out of high school in Wichita, you were offered by a who's who of college football programs. Did you almost go somewhere else? And then what was the deciding factor in choosing to stay in-state and play football in Manhattan?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, my top three schools were uh K State, Washington, and Oregon. And um the biggest thing was just you know how close it was in that home feel. Um it was really good support staff here, great strength staff, and ultimately uh all my family members and friends could make it an easy trip, two hours just to watch any home football game. So I played a big role of it. And then obviously Coach Kleinman, uh, my relationship with him played another role in me coming here and staying here.
SPEAKER_04You and running back Dylan Edwards were childhood friends and huge stars coming out of Wichita. He spent a year at Colorado and now he's your teammate again. He had a huge punt return against Arizona. How does it feel to be playing again with your old friend?
SPEAKER_03It's a bunch of fun just because this is something we talked about when we were younger and um obviously we dreamed about. So being able to see him um have success and be able to impact the game and the way he does whenever he touches the football. Um it's something I've been seeing for since I've been young. So um nothing new to me, but he's he's kind of putting the the college scene um on. I guess he's he's kind of stepping up and putting on for for Wichita.
SPEAKER_04So definitely a great one-two punch in the backfield. Wichita doesn't get a whole lot of credit for being a football town, but there's greats like Gail Sayers, Heisman Trophy winner Barry Sanders that came out of there. Are you aware of those guys' legacies? And does that inspire you to want to add your own name to that legacy?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, for sure. And then um, like we used to play, me and Dylan used to play at uh Barry Sanders football field growing up. So it's definitely an inspiration, and and those guys kind of look for um guys like and me and Dylan, and um, there's a bunch of great other football players that that came out of Wichita. So being able to, you know, follow in those guys' footsteps and and represent the city of Wichita definitely means a lot.
SPEAKER_04Did you ever get to meet Barry Sanders?
SPEAKER_03Uh I did not.
SPEAKER_04Well, maybe one day.
SPEAKER_03One day.
SPEAKER_04You were also a standout basketball and baseball player in high school. Did you ever give thought to focusing on either one of those sports? And what eventually led you to focus on football?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, growing up I played all three and I enjoyed all three. Basketball was probably like my my most favorite. I love playing basketball. Um I never really considered playing baseball at the next level. It was a little bit too slow for me. And I wasn't really like the biggest baseball fan. I just liked the hit, so um, I continued to play it and it helped me in different kind of arm angles playing middle infield growing up, so that could kind of translate to the football field. But I knew since I first stepped on the football field since a young age that I wanted to be a uh Division I quarterback and an NFL quarterback. So it wasn't really a hard decision uh whenever it came down to it.
SPEAKER_04And besides, if you had chosen basketball, there might be some confusion right now between you and the other Avery Johnson, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Uh if you're gonna compare your style of play to any quarterback out there, who would it be?
SPEAKER_03I mean, I'd probably say the closest comparison I can make just based off like throwing and running ability would be Lamar Jackson, but I know he's kind of in his own realm when it comes to running. I'm not I wouldn't say I'm that talented of a runner quite yet, but um just how explosive he is when he gets out in open space, and um he's a great passer as well, but I still got a long way to go. He's a uh two-time NFL MVP Heisman Trophy winner, so uh still got a lot of work to do to to even scrape the the surface that that he's kind of paid.
SPEAKER_04How fast are you actually just running in a straight line? Have you had you ever uh run a hundred meters or or been timed with an electronic timer?
SPEAKER_03No, I've never ran uh a hundred meters. I didn't I didn't run track in high school. I mean I mean I ran a meet, but I ran the four by one. Um but I mean I'm a four four four twenty-two mile per hour guy. So I like to think I'm the fastest on the team. Second fastest now with Dylan here.
SPEAKER_04So interesting. Watching the games and how you interact with interact with the fans after, I'm really struck by the connection you seem to have with the Wildcats Faithful. What makes playing football in Manhattan so special?
SPEAKER_03Really just how how much the fans kind of come around the team and rally around us. The environment we had on Friday night was nothing like I've ever been a part of um in my year and some change here. So really just how how much support they have for for this team and how bottom they are into us and uh just the little things. They do the little things and and those go a lot a long way for for us players.
SPEAKER_04What's your favorite tradition playing for Kansas State?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's it's the cat walk, and it's whenever we pull up to the facility on on game days, we get out of the buses and we just walk into the the stadium and there's cats fans lined up on your left and your right, um and you get to interact with them. You get to I I sign some stuff for little kids, take pictures, whatever you can do just as you're walking, and it just really shows you know um how you can impact impact somebody's life and and just by uh you know interacting with them for just a second.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you know, speaking of that, you're a public figure now uh around the community and college football. What's something about you or something you like to do that not a lot of people know about?
SPEAKER_03Um I mean I just when I came down to Manhattan, I kind of started getting into golfing. Um not the best golfer, but uh I do it for fun in the summers and then fish a little bit in the summers for fun. But majority of the time I don't really do too much. I mean, in my free whenever I do get free time, the little free time we get nowadays, I like to, you know, sleep or spend time with my friends and and play video games every once in a while, but I wouldn't say I do anything, you know, out of the ordinary.
SPEAKER_04Have you ever come close to hitting a hole in one?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I'll ever get to a hole in one, but you know, I'm I'm bad enough that it might happen.
SPEAKER_04You've been talked about as a dark horse Heisman candidate, and we're not gonna ask you much about that, but I am curious whether making a run at the Heisman is one of your career goals at Kansas State. For sure.
SPEAKER_03Um it's always been a goal of mine since I've been a little kid, and it's always something I uh put on you know my bucket list whenever I I set my preseason um goal list. But you know, at the end of the day, I I'm I'm a really big believer in, you know, individual accolades will come with with team success. And the biggest thing that I want to do this year is win the Big 12, go 13-0 and make the college football playoffs. So um, I feel like everything else will kind of come along with that. And if I continue to, you know, take care of business and and prepare the way I prepare, um, and and do what I know I can do on Saturdays along with my team, then everything will kind of take care of itself in there.
SPEAKER_04You mentioned Lamar Jackson earlier. Is he one of your favorite Heisen winners? Do you have any other Heisen winners that you followed growing up?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, my favorite was Marcus Mariota. Um just being kind of in that era. Uh, I was a really big Marcus Mariota fan just because every kid loved Oregon's jerseys and being able to watch him. And he I loved any quarterback that could run and pass the ball. So he was one I grew up watching.
SPEAKER_04I can see you kind of being like him, you kind of similar styles, similar bodies, and everything. Avery Johnson, sophomore quarterback for Kansas State. Thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy podcast. We wish you the best of luck this season and good luck this Saturday against BYU.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_04The Heisman is handed out every December, but the history of the trophy lives year-round at Heisman.com. Home to the most iconic trophy in sports, Heisman.com tells the stories of all 88 of our winners and features news, bios, and statistics on all your favorite Heisman heroes. Heisman.com also highlights our Heisman Humanitarians, the many charities supported by the Heisman Trust, and so much more. Make Heisman.com your first stop for all things Heisman. Alright, dear listeners, we have for you a special treat today. Here on the show is the man, the myth, the legend, the great Phil Steele, who you might know as the author and genius behind the Phil Steele Preview magazine, which of course is an essential component for any college football fan who wants to know what's going on heading into the season. Phil, thanks so much for coming on the official Heisman Trophy Podcast.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and a pleasure being on, especially a Heisman uh podcast like this. I've been honored to be a Heisman voter for quite some time, and it's uh it's probably one of my favorite awards by far.
SPEAKER_04Well, absolutely. We're gonna get into all the stuff about the magazine and your origin story a little bit later, but I just want to first touch upon some current events from this past weekend, which was an interesting one, uh, with some games that didn't quite go how people expected. I especially want to talk with you about Georgia's 13-12 victory over Kentucky. Really surprising game to me, especially considering the way the Wildcats played the previous week against South Carolina. So I just want to get your thoughts on the game and why you think it transpired the way it did.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, now Georgia has struggled every time they've gone to play Kentucky on the road, but I thought they would handle this one easily. Uh, watch that South Carolina game, and South Carolina's defensive line just dominated Kentucky's offensive line. You figured Georgia with a great defensive front seven would do the same thing, but they struggled. Uh, you know, they allowed Kentucky to get uh 23 first downs in the game, which surprised me. And offensively, uh their offensive line was down a starter or two, but uh they couldn't move the football. So it was a very surprising game to me. But as Kirby Smart pointed out, they struggled at Missouri uh two years ago. Last year they struggled on the road at Auburn. They they had seemed to have a game where they struggle on the road in their first game. We'll see if Georgia can get it turned around. But you know, I'm a voter in the FWA Super 16 poll, and I actually dropped Georgia down from number one because of the way they looked in that game.
SPEAKER_04You use so much analytics and numbers to come up with your own ways of looking at the games from so many different angles. I was curious, at some point with these types of outcomes, do you just sit back and throw your hands in the air and say, well, that's college football?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sometimes I mean, you see, every team has got that great game during the course of the year, and they've got that bad game during the course of the year, and sometimes you throw it out. Now, if Georgia all of a sudden plays like this three weeks in a row, then it wasn't an anomaly. But this one I am counting as an anomaly.
SPEAKER_04Do you think it was more Georgia playing down to the level of their opponent, or was it Kentucky playing up to the level of Georgia, or both?
SPEAKER_01I think a combination of both. Kentucky, nobody was respecting him after the South Carolina game at home, fired up home crowd. And I think if the game had turned early, let's say Georgia got a couple of quick touchdowns, it probably would have gone the other way where Georgia rolled. But the fact that kept Kentucky in the game, in fact, Kentucky was out playing them, uh, and and it was Georgia's first true road game this year, uh, I think all those factored in. But it to me it was I think if they played that game again ten times, we'd get a different outcome.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that makes sense. So we're three weeks into the college football season. From your point of view, which team do you think is the best team in college football right now?
SPEAKER_01You know, I'd I'd have to go, uh I've got number one, Texas, for the fact that they went into Michigan and did what they did to uh a Michigan team. Uh so I've got Texas right up there. I've got Ohio State right up there as well. Now they haven't played anybody, but they've been very impressive. But it's as much as bad as Georgia looked against Kentucky, I still think if they come up and play to their level, they've got the depth, the experience, they could still very well win it all this year. It's just a very disappointing game last week.
SPEAKER_04So I think I speak for a lot of people out there when I say that your magazine has become an indispensable tool for the hardcore college football fan. It's always an exciting day in the summer when the new edition comes out. To so many people, you are that magazine, and that magazine is you. But I want to know more about you, the man. Where did Phil Steele come from? And where did you get that love of college football that clearly just drives you to this day?
SPEAKER_01Well, uh, born and raised in uh Cleveland, Ohio, and uh, you know, my dad was a football fan, and I've been a football fan, even a college football fan, probably since the age of five or six. I remember watching the games uh uh back then when I was young. And uh I always wanted to have football conversations with my dad, of course, played football growing up, but never College or anything like that, but uh just been a massive football fan. And then I started writing a football newsletter back when I was uh 22, 23 years old. And what I would do is uh uh compile all the information out there from all the magazines. Back then, there was what, 16 to 20 magazines on the market, and I would uh write down all the information on my notebook. And after reading through 16 magazines, sometimes I would have 12 players listed on a team uh because they they just basically all recovered or recovered the same uh players and and didn't have it all in there. So what I did is I started compiling all the information myself. And somebody came to my office one day, I think it was back in 1990, when I've I've got all my pages, I've got three deeps. I need a three-deep on every team. I don't need just a couple players on it, and said, why don't you turn that into a magazine? So we did that in 1995 and uh you know put the first one out. It seems like at the time it was black and white, it was on newsprint, and uh, and we we only sold, you know, maybe 25,000, 30,000 copies of it. But once somebody got their hands on the information, they needed it each year, and the magazine's grown each and every year since then.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I know people who have all those editions going way back to even then, and they'll, you know, it's kind of flipped a bit. Back then, the magazines, you know, they would have a little bit of data, a few lists, and then there'd be stories about the teams or features on the players, uh, a narrative by some writer who would talk about it and you, you know, just about what to expect for the season. I think the the Phil Steel magazine was just a breath of fresh air to so many people. How did you come up with all those different terminologies, for example, that describe the recruits and all the players? Really curious about that.
SPEAKER_01Well, first of all, I'm a numbers guy. I have zero artistic talent, but I'm a pure math guy. So I've got my computer and I've got nine sets of power ratings on each team. And believe it or not, the only sport I follow year-round is college football.
SPEAKER_04I I believe it.
SPEAKER_01On Sundays when the NFL games are going on, I'm watching replays of the college games. That uh so I'm just pure college football. And uh the magazine actually takes seven months to write. I start the Sunday after Thanksgiving and work all the way through the first week of June on nothing but the magazine. So uh, and I talk to the head coaches, I talk to 124 of the 134 head coaches, and not just a hey, how you doing, how you feel about the team. I send them my team pages, there's every single player on them, and I have them go over every player with me. The calls last about an hour on the average, and I get the strengths, the weaknesses, how they feel about the positions. I've got all my power ratings worked in, pluses, minus, and and it's really all I do is college football. I I take me to a grocery store, I wouldn't know what to do, but college football I know about.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I totally believe that. I think that's why so many people out there who are fanatics for college football have always seen you as a kindred spirit. I know that I used to watch eight TVs at once uh during the day. I don't do it as much anymore now that I have kids, but I used to have eight TVs watching the games and their time slots, and people would think I was a nut. And then I started seeing you post your TVs, and I was like, wow, this guy gets me. He's one of us, you know. So, what were you doing before you got into the college football prognostication business? Really curious how you made that transition from whatever you were doing before to what you're doing now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I uh, you know, at 18 years old, I started managing some fast food restaurants. At 21, I started my business. So, I mean, it's this has really been uh all I've done in my life is is the uh I started writing a football newsletter at 21, started writing the magazine then in 1995, and uh it's pretty much just been football. And I'm blessed because I get to, as you watch eight games, I watch 12 games on a Saturday, and that's my job. I have to watch football year-round and read about football year round and talk to head football coaches, and so I'm I'm very blessed in that respect.
SPEAKER_04Not a bad job at all. Do you ever get to the point where you're like, I just cannot watch college football anymore? I gotta get away. What point in the year are you just like, no more college football? You turn everything off, sit by the beach. When does that come around?
SPEAKER_01Luckily, it hasn't happened yet. It's uh so you know, I've been doing this for quite some time, 30th year of the magazine, and uh thankfully that has not happened yet. Uh, it just uh if it's football year round. I have football season, I have magazine season, and when I the my front my fun time is uh once the magazine goes to the press in June, the month of July, the start of August. That's my fun time. I'll go on vacation with my daughters, uh something like that. And and that's really my fun time is the summer.
SPEAKER_04Your magazine has witnessed multiple eras of college football: the bowl era, the BCS era, the first college football playoff, now the expanded playoff. What was your favorite era during that stretch?
SPEAKER_01Um, you know, I uh you you're always fond of uh probably members, memories from when you were younger. So I would have to say the uh, you know, the early 70s was a great time of football for me because I was so young at the time. And uh I would I would put that out there as probably my favorite time, but basically all the seasons blend together, and all I do is uh work on uh college football. And so it's just uh it's one of those things where I can't really pinpoint a single season as my favorite time, but probably back when I was when I was when I was a teenager, that would probably be my my best time of college football.
SPEAKER_04I take it you must have been a big Big Ten fan and must have been a big fan of a lot of the players back then, Archie Griffith and all those guys.
SPEAKER_01Oh, absolutely. And uh, you know, USC uh with uh John McVeigh and and uh the uh you know the uh their offense that they ran there. Oklahoma, Nebraska running the wishbone. Remember that 1972 game between Oklahoma and Nebraska, the irresistible force versus the immovable object or whatever year that was. Uh yeah, it was incredible. And the the advent of the wishbone, I think, was really neat to see that come into college football.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it seems like there was a lot more interesting variance with the offenses back then. You know, you had the wishbone, you had the eye formation, you had the eye-bone, the flex bone over at Nebraska, all that kind of stuff, the veer. Now it seems like we've homogenized into you know just one offense. Seems to be some variation of the spread, whether it's an error rate spread or the read option. Seems like almost every team, with the exception of maybe a couple of service academies, runs some variation of that every year. Do you think we sort of reach the end of offense as we know it and that it's just going to be a variation on that from here on out? Or will the pendulum swing back the other way and maybe go to more of, you know, I mean, like for example, could the option come back? Could the flex bone work today if someone tried to run it? Do you think?
SPEAKER_01You know, I think we will see some variations of that come back clearly. Uh, I like what you and Lvia is doing. They run a pretty unique offense if you watch your formation sometimes. But what I think is going to happen is we're, you know, we've gone to more spread, which is four wide receivers, uh, and really de-emphasizing the tight end. But smart coaches might go to more tight ends because they're taking out that weak or the uh strong side linebacker and turning it into more of a nickelback nowadays. So if you bring two tight ends in, you're actually matching up well. And look at the success George has had in recent years running the double tight end offense. But I think everybody will continue to run something of the spread, whether it's the option spread or the pass spread offense.
SPEAKER_04I'm curious what kind of challenges you faced once the internet really took control and once you went from internet to social media, as far as your magazine is concerned.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, the beautiful part of the magazine, as far as the internet goes, is that I actually feel it's a quicker, easier reference tool than the internet. For example, you have 134 teams out there, you have 134 different websites. So if you want to find the starting left tackle for Georgia Southern, just try going to their website and finding the starting left tackle. You're probably 12, 13 clicks away from knowing exactly where to go. Meanwhile, my magazine, close your eyes. Starting left tackle is right there on the page. What was the score from three years ago? Once again, close your eyes. It's right here. Just look, there it is. You can find the information actually quicker in the magazine, the way it's laid out. And I laid it out for that purpose so it's quicker, easier reference. Go to anybody's website. You can look up the information, but you're probably five, six, seven clicks away from getting it. Whereas in my magazine, you know exactly where to work. All 134 pages are laid out the exact same way. And really, they have all the information you need. Five years ago, score, uh, spread records, anything is in there. And we give you a three-deep on every single team.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's really an unbelievable and convenient resource. One thing I've always wondered is as you compress more and more information into those pages, the font starts to get smaller and smaller. So, how small can those fonts go?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'll tell you what. Uh, in the first years of the magazine, I'll be honest, uh, we go the smallest font we want to use is probably seven or eight point. Well, in those first years, I actually went down to five points sometimes because I was just like, I need this information on the page. Well, I've changed, I've changed a little bit, so we don't go that small anymore, but we actually did the first years back when it was in black and white and news spread. And the good thing about the magazine is I use a lot of abbreviations.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_01You know, back in 1995, my abbreviations were probably like somebody coming in from Mars. Right. But now everybody texts and they all have their abbreviations. So I think the abbreviations are much easier now to get by with than they were back in 1995.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think that some of those abbreviations just became a part of the culture of college football, the PS numbers, the HT, the VHTs. They were just cool methods to help follow the sport. All right. So there's been a lot of changes in college football the last few years, especially over the course of your magazine's life. What are some changes you really enjoyed? And then what are some changes that you think might need to be tinkered with a little bit more?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think the big thing that uh we probably need to work on that that's happened in recent years has probably been the uh it's going away from the regionalization of college football. I liked it when we had the Pac-12 and the ACC. And the ACC used to be the Atlantic Coast Conference. Now you can call it the All-Chost Conference because it's got Stanford and California and SMU in it. Uh I used to like the regional stuff. I go back to uh Penn State. You know, they used to play as an Eastern Independent and they had a trophy for the top Eastern team. So I'm hoping that college football somehow can get back to more regional football, but uh we'll have to see where it takes. You know, the current way we're going is we might have two or three super conferences uh with 24 teams in a league or something like that. And we'll just have to see. If you would ask me five years ago if we're gonna be at this state right now, I think it would have been tough to predict. So it's it's gonna be tough to predict where we're going, but I'm hoping we do get back to more regional football.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I've been asking people who come on the show if the ratings boost that we've experienced the last couple of years is indication of a broadening of the sports appeal, whereas maybe there's not as much intensity uh in certain spots as there was before. So that maybe there's more people watching college football, but maybe the engagement level isn't quite there.
SPEAKER_01No, that's interesting. I'm gonna I'm gonna go with your outlook on that. Uh, because as me, I'm just following college football year round. So I don't know what other people are following, but that does make a lot of sense, what you just said. So I'll agree with you.
SPEAKER_04You know, one thing that's really cool about your magazine is, and look, you know this space better than anybody. The Athlons, the Street and Smiths, the Lindys, I feel like those have just fallen by the wayside. And in this era of the digital magazines, I feel like nobody picks up these print editions anymore because the information you get is almost always duplicated online. But you can't really find your stuff online to the same level of detail. It seems like it would be a huge advantage in that marketplace to be the only one left standing and the only one fully committed to print with an edition that people can put in their back pocket or just take to the beach.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think it has been a big advantage. We are the the number one selling uh magazine at Barnes and Noble, which I greatly appreciate. Those folks are tremendous over there at Barnes and Noble. And, you know, there was a thing uh back when I started, Joe Del Paplo was running the game plan magazine. I don't know, do you remember the game plan magazine?
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah, I remember the game plan.
SPEAKER_01And he sort of took me under his wing and allowed me to enter the magazine business. And so I appreciate that greatly. And back then he told me, here's the key, Phil, you got to be the first one on the market. Because when you're the first magazine on the market, people pick up their first football one they see. They'll pick up the second one they see, and then they might be out of money for the year. Well, we have evolved to the point where this year I actually went to the press after other magazines were out on the newsstand already because of the transfer portal. I had to wait until not only knowing the players that entered the transfer portal, but I gave it over a month to find out where all those players landed. So we went to the press June 8th. We came out far later than everybody else. So other magazines were on the market June 1st. We came out July 4th. But people wait. They'll wait for the magazine and they get it. And that's the advantage of having uh a magazine that once you get it, I feel you need to have it each and every year. And it's given us a big advantage.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. And you know, it's always fun to see it come out nice and crisp on the newsstand, and by the end of the year it's all dog eared and beat up and filled with water and whatnot, sand from the beach. I was curious with the advent of NIL and the way this affects uh the transfer market, and this affects your ability to preview the teams as far as the transfers go, and even deeper things like being able to gauge whether a team can effectively absorb these new players and get them all playing cohesively. Because when you get a lot of new guys in a program, it's not always easy to get them all playing together. So, how do you assess teams and how do you account for that sort of ephemeral factor of trying to determine can all these guys be brought together in one short time span and learn to play together at a very high level?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's something I'm learning on the fly as we go through this transfer portal era, I'll tell you that much. And we've seen different levels of success. Now, I think the best transfer portal guys are the guys that come in pre-spring and are able to earn a starting job in the spring with the team. Then I think they assimilate better to the upcoming season. But we've seen guys, look at Mike Norvell at Florida State. Tremendous success in the transfer portal. His first, the last two years, uh, 2023, 2022. This year he did the same thing. He's brought in a lot of transfers. DJ Ui Ungalele, a quarterback, and guess what? It's not working out as well. So I think the teams that use the transfers to fill some needs will end up doing better in the long run. Teams that are using a ton of transfers to come in uh will probably struggle, like a like a Colorado has struggled the last two years, just basically remaking their team each year. Five new offensive line starters this year. We'll see how that shakes out. But it's something you do have to weigh on an individual coach basis, as you mentioned very astutely. Uh, it's also something you have to look at as the amount of transfers or when the transfers come in uh as to their impact for the team this year.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and then this is also something that I think affects the fans as well, because in the old days, you know, like I'd go to the store and open the street in Smiths to find out who was on the team, who was brought in, who they recruited. And until recently, fans had a level of familiarity with the roster which was really unprecedented in the history of college football, and mainly because of recruiting and the hype that goes with that and following these players since they were in high school. But I think this connection's been severed a bit because fans would follow a recruit and they sign with the team and they're like, okay, this guy's on my team. I look forward to watching him. They show up at the game the following year and he's transferred somewhere else. And then someone else who they didn't know was on the team is on the team. How do you think that's going to play out eventually with the fans? Are we going to find a bit of stabilization there when they come up with some new rules to sort of make sure that there's just not this much chaos going on between the rosters?
SPEAKER_01I hope so. And talk talking to the coaches, I think they feel the same way too. Now, the coaches will tell you you have to adapt. So whatever the rules are, you have to adapt and go with it. And the rules are as they are now. And I think we've seen a lot of coaches adapt. But I'd like to see them limit the amount of times that player can transfer. Uh, I liked it when they first did the rule that said you can transfer once, and then you'd have to sit out a year for transfer too. And I think a lot of head coaches, especially in the group of five, felt, well, if we get a transfer and he's got to stay here, now that's not the case anymore. So it has created a lot of uh chaos as far as the coaches go, but also as you mentioned, the fans that follow the team. And I get a kick out of reading the article. I'll see an article pop up and it says, so-and-so commits to this team as a 2026 recruit. It's like, what's that worth? Is that guy even going to end up being there? Why are we talking about it? Because he could end up two different places before he even signs. And once he signs, he may end up on a different team. So it does uh create, I think, a little bit of uh uh chaos among the fans as far as knowing their individual teams. Maybe helps out and sell them my magazine a little bit because we capture all the players on all the teams.
SPEAKER_04Right. You know, one other distortion that's happened these past few years is the extra COVID year. And, you know, that's about to end. I think that was big, you know. What do you think about that and how that distorted the rosters temporarily? You get fifth, sixth-year, seventh year guys. Sometimes you're looking at some old guys playing against some young guys in situations, guys with old man strength, going up against 18, 19-year-olds. As we leave that situation now next year, do you think there's going to be a little bit of dust settling in that regard with some programs? Like maybe we'll start to revert back to how things were before the COVID crisis hit?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think you might have a good point there. And uh, you know, you take a look at Northern Illinois this year. Northern Illinois's got 36 seniors on the team, and uh a lot of them are COVID seniors, and uh they're a veteran, experienced team. And look what they did against Notre Dame, a very impressive upset uh two weeks ago. So uh I think COVID the COVID thing was necessary because some teams only played four games. And how do you say, well, these teams can do it, but you can't? So I do think it was a good thing to come up with, and and the super senior concept has proven true to form. You look at last year's Michigan team. Michigan had one of the most experienced teams in the country, loaded with seniors, and they won the national title. Same thing with Washington. They had a very experienced team loaded with seniors, and they were playing in the national title game. All those seniors left both those two teams this year, and both two teams have struggled. So the experience factor is very big in college football. And remember, that was the edge BYU used to have. You would remember that. Um, you know, BYU had a bunch of 24, 25, 26-year-olds playing against 18-year-olds, and it was a big advantage for them uh in some years back in the 80s and 90s.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you know, you're very big on assessing talent. I think you subscribe to the John Wooden maxim about talent over experience. I think most people would agree with that who are involved in sports. But in these situations where you have extreme cases of experience, it's almost like someone can create a sliding scale where a five-star or a PS number one player who is a 19-year-old is actually equal to a PS300 who's 24 years old. It seems like if you get enough experience, overwhelming amounts of experience, then it starts to balance out the talent deficit. Is that an observation that makes sense to you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it does. And let me give you a little thing that I've learned from going through the coaches with this transfer portal. Uh, when the transfer portal started, what, three, four years ago, I would see a player come in from an FCS team. And I'd be like, Well, is he really going to make an impact? And the coaches would always say, you know, how value experience. And so what we found is with these FCS transfers coming in, as highly skeptical as I was at the beginning, it seems that the majority of them come in and have success for a couple of reasons. They come in and A, they now have a training table, and they have a advanced weight room so they can make themselves bigger, stronger, faster. And B, the experience level gives them an edge. And C, they've got a great attitude. They are thankful for being there. They're not one of these PS number one guys, as you talked about, that transfers down and says, Well, you're lucky I'm here. These guys are thankful for being there and give their full effort. And what I've seen is that the FCS transfers have actually panned out better than a lot of the transfers that come down that were highly rated coming out of high school, that just don't pan out. So that's one thing I've learned from talking to the head coaches. And I'm completely different now on FCS transfers. I think the coaches that get the best out of the transfers, uh, like Coach Signetti at uh Indiana this year, brought in a lot of transfers, but he values experience over the athleticism.
SPEAKER_04Phil, you're a Heisman voter. You've obviously been prognosticating the Heisman for a long time. Who is your Heisman favorite coming into the year and how has that been adjusted as the first three weeks of the season have already been played?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I'll I'll adapt it after now three, four weeks of the season. But Dylan Gabriel is my favorite coming in, and I still think Dylan Gabriel has a shot. He's got a big game coming up against Ohio State. And if Oregon's offense looks like it did last week against Oregon State, I still think he could get there a win over Ohio State would vault him up the charts. But Cam Ward has looked spectacular so far for Miami and Florida. You look at a Jackson Dart for Ole Miss, you know he's going to put up big stats in if Ole Miss wins some big games, he'd have that shot. Nico Iamaleava from uh Tennessee is another guy that's uh looking really good at the start of the year. And if you're looking for non-quarterbacks, how about Ashton Genty of Boise State, who's had a really good start to the season? Uh, or Marion Hampton of North Carolina, who is up at the top of the rushing charts last year. And then a wild card, someone that might not be playing on a team that wins a lot of games, but how do you look past Travis Hunter, who's one of the top receivers in the league and also one of the top defensive players in the league, and plays so many snaps? Now, as a Heisman voter, I don't make my mind up until the season's over, and then I'll look at it and say, okay, here's the guys that are most deserving. But right now, my early front runners would probably be those seven.
SPEAKER_04Well, you're a big numbers guy, and I've kind of asked this of a few people as well. Every year, people complain about linebackers and O-linemen and defensive linemen not getting enough attention for the Heisman. Are there any metrics that we can find on offensive linemen or create that might give voters more of an insight as to what kind of effect they have on the game? Because coaches do keep grades for the O linemen and also for defenders to show uh how well they uh keep their assignments, but almost all of these stats are kept private. And you know, unless it's a great game and then they they let you know that a guy graded out great for that game. So do you think it's possible to create specific metrics and analytics for some of these positions that are not ball dominant?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it is possible. But then again, there are sources out there right now that grade offensive linemen. And talking to the head coaches, they don't always agree with the way that these players, these uh systems are grading their offensive linemen. So I would take it straight from the coaches and what they're breaking down the game fill. But then again, if you're doing it that way, you may get some prejudice towards the end of the year where they may fluff the numbers a little bit. I think it's going to be tough for an offensive lineman to win this award. But I do think at the other positions, you do have stats and you are probably able to grade it out. But in the long run, it it's tough to trust the source that you're getting for an individual grade on offense alignment.
SPEAKER_04Right. If Phil Steele was the commissioner for college football, which by the way, I would vote for you if there was such a position that existed and if it was available to be to be voted for, what would you do to get the sport to where you think it needs to be?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it goes back to what I had said earlier. I I would like to see more regionalization of college football. I like West Coast football. I like East Coast football. I like Southern football, Midwest football. Let's get back to that uh somehow. If you have a massive conference, let's have a West Coast part of it. And, you know, sort of like the NFL does with the six divisions. But I would like to see more uh regionalization of college football. I think that would help as far as uh people following the sport goes. And that would probably be my one big thing. Another thing, and I'll just throw it out there, is a guy that watches 12 games. Let's speed these games up a little bit because when that 12 o'clock noon start runs past 3.30, now I've got to choose which game I'm watching here at 3.30 when games really shouldn't last past three and a half hours. So let's shorten the games up a little bit so we're not worried about that conflict at uh 3.30 in the afternoon.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that does seem like something that they should start noodling with. Um, but I am curious what you think of this new rule, which of course is not a two-minute warning as they tell us, but is actually a timeout at the two-minute point at the end of each half. What do you think of that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it to me it's you know one extra timeout, not a major thing that's gonna impact the game. It adds another minute and a half to the game, but if we could find other stuff to shorten it up a little bit, that'd be good.
SPEAKER_04I just want to circle back around on our television watching habits. Back when I used to watch eight games at a time for every time slot on a Saturday, what I would do, because people would ask me, how can you watch that many games? And it was simple because you would watch a play on one TV and then you just move your eyes immediately after the play was over to the next TV and so on and so forth. You don't really need to see all the stuff in between the plays. So as soon as you can process what's actually happening on each TV, you can actually get a lot out of it. Is that how it works for you too?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And and the thing I point out is if you're watching 12 games, there's generally maybe one or two plays going on at the same time. So you can really, as you mentioned, and I I love it, I think we're cut from the same cloth. So I really enjoy talking to you about this stuff. Uh, but you look at this one and you can zap up there and you get a good feel for all 12 games. Takes a lot of Diet Mountain Dew. What was your choice of drink?
SPEAKER_04Diet Mountain Dew is actually my fuel for sure. I think it fuels a lot of college football obsessiveness, to be honest. So, what I would do is I would go from game to game or watch play to play, and you wouldn't always get the detail, but what you would get is a kind of a bigger picture over the course of a season. And so I think maybe you don't remember all the plays, but you remember the plays that matter the most. And even some plays that you don't think you saw, I think you end up that they kind of get stuck in the subconscious. Is that how you feel about it as well?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I agree. And what I do is uh mentally, I sort of count good plays, bad plays. Like, you know, every time I look at that TV, this team makes a good play. Every time I look at this TV, that team's making a good play. They've got the majority of it, or you can see if it's even. And that sort of gives you a really good flavor. Now, as mentioned on Sundays, what I do is I like to watch the games in their entirety while I walk around in my barn and get some exercise. I'll watch an individual game and listen to the comments from the the because you can't listen to 12 games at one time. And you can actually get a little bit better feel. But overall, yes, you can really get a good feel for each of the games by watching them all at the same time.
SPEAKER_04Man, it would be a great experience to watch games with you one day. Are you still in Ohio? Is that where your base is?
SPEAKER_01Stop by any time. It'd be a it'd be a real treat to watch games with you.
SPEAKER_04Well, that would truly be an honor. Phil Steele, like I said, he is a legend of college football. He writes the best magazine out there for those of you who love college football and who really want to get into it down to the granular level. This is the magazine you have to buy and just put on your nightstand or just have it by your side rolled up while you're watching the game. Of course, I would be remiss to not mention that Phil also has a great website, Philsteel.com, where you can get up-to-date information and analysis on the 2024 season. And you can also find him on the website formerly known as Twitter at Philsteel042. So, Phil Steele, it was a pleasure having you on the official Heisman Trophy Podcast, and we wish you the best.
SPEAKER_01Hey, f excellent. Enjoyed talking with you today, and it's an honor being on the Heisman Trophy Podcast.
SPEAKER_04Thanks so much for tuning in to this week's official Heisman Trophy Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please take a moment to like, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support helps us reach more listeners just like you and keeps us motivated to bring you great content each week. Don't forget to follow us on social media for updates, behind-the-scenes content, and more. Any other feedback or questions, just email us at pod at heisman.com. That's pod at heisman.com, or drop me a note on x.com at Heisman Pundit. You don't need to throw for over 4,000 yards or rush for 2,000 yards to attend the Heisman Gala. That's the annual celebration in New York to honor the Heisman Trophy winner the day after the announcement. Tickets to the gala are open to the public and will go on sale soon. So be sure to keep checking at Heisman.com for information on how to secure your seat and witness Heisman history. All right, we're here with Figure Skating in Harlem, founder and CEO Sharon Cohen. Sharon, thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy Podcast.
SPEAKER_02Hey, Chris, it's my pleasure to be here with you.
SPEAKER_04In the early 90s, community leaders Gene Kitt and Bernice Diabro invited you to teach skating in the Harlem community, and that ignited a spark that would forever change lives. You collaborated with dedicated parents and Upward Inc. to create the foundation of what would become figure skating in Harlem. Now, just to set the foundation a bit, you were already an accomplished figure skater, an ice dancer growing up ahead of attending your undergrad at Brown. You got a Master of Fine Arts at NYU and film directing and writing. You know, we hear a lot about the discipline it takes to be great in athletics and how it often translates to success in school and career. Did you find that as well?
SPEAKER_02100%. I had no idea the impact of my training as a young skater, how it would impact the rest of my life, and gave me some skills I think uh put me a little, maybe a little edge, as they say.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And and is something like that easy to teach to people as well? Uh to let them know that this is something that if they try and if they get disciplined in, is something that's going to serve them in their career going forward?
SPEAKER_02You know, you can talk all you want, but it's about experience, right? And what I found is once our students in Harlem got onto the ice and began to push forward and fall down and get back up, those lessons are embedded in learning something difficult. And in this case, it was figure skating. And what I think makes it really special is it's both a sport where you have to have that athlete's mindset and also it's an art. So you have that artistic expression.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. As you started your career producing short films and documentaries, you won a lot of awards along the way. In the early 90s, you were approached one day, not for your filmmaking, but for your skating background, and you were asked to teach skating in Harlem. Walk us through that serendipitous connection, how it happened and how the spark ensued.
SPEAKER_02Well, I, you know, everything is serendipitous. And to be honest, I was working at CBS News and I heard about some ice hockey teams from Princeton and Yale. They were women's teams back in the early 90s, very rare. And they came to East Harlem to teach girls how to play hockey and how to skate. And um, the leaders back then were looking for figure skating because a lot of the girls were saying, hey, I want to figure skate and not play hockey, although now you know it's interchangeable. Um, uh, they uh we just connected. I was so um impressed by the grassroots efforts they were making to improve kids' lives through sport. I mean, they had a very uh well-known basketball program at Upward Inc. And figure skating was just something that would uh interest the girls.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, this happened to also be around the time of uh the the 94 Olympics. Was that a big part of it as well? Just the kind of having the drama of figure skating uh around.
SPEAKER_02You know, not many people remember this, Chris, but you're right on, and by the way, sorry for the uh New York City noise in the background, but no worries. The fact is that skating sort of burst onto the national scene in the 90s because of an unfortunate incident with one competitor sort of lopping the knees of another one, but it was everywhere after that. A lot of the amateur skaters began to have professional skating existences. Now, I had I was you know out of the sport by then and had was pursuing other interests. But, you know, like most sports, I think it kids take to it. Like I just loved being on the ice the way swimmer loves being in the water. And so when I was invited to East Harlem, what I found was when you open the doors and there's access, girls just and it could be boys, but in our in this case it was girls because they wanted an alternative to hockey, they just you'd see the joy of trying something completely new and what that physical sensation was really like.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I guess they say, you know, all publicity is good publicity. So the sport was, you know, a little more visible after that. Uh okay, so a few years later in 1997, founded figure skating in Harlem. How modest was that start? You know, where did you first skate at and how many girls were there?
SPEAKER_02So modest. First, let me just say girls could see skating on television. They make it look very easy. But when you get down and you lace your skates up and you step on that ice for the first time, it's really, you know, it's scary whether you're six or sixteen or twenty-six. So uh uh what happened was that within the Harlem community, these parents began to see a transformation of their daughters, their confidence, how they began to, you know, walk a little, you know, with more pep in their step. And um, we began to see that this sport could also extend beyond the ice and that we could bring kids into having an educational foundation that could benefit them later on. So in 1997, I was coming out of NYU film school, not with a job by Steven Spielberg, which I had hoped. And at the same time, this nonprofit in the east in East Harlem was closing. So the parents and I got together and met at in people's kitchen room, brown kitchen, kitchen tables and dining rooms, and we decided to think about what would be the optimal situation. So maybe we start with 40 girls and we skated a couple times a week, and we began to make education the center of it. So keeping your grades up, getting tutored, all of that became central. And then it's just blossomed uh 28, almost 30 years later, it's become a full-blown uh youth development.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. What kind of uh facilities were and are available for that kind of thing? I know in New York uh there's lots of places to go skating. Uh, was this something that was taken advantage of a little bit at first and then moved to other places?
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm gonna bust that myth, right? There are outdoor places to skate recreationally, but there's only one real indoor rink facility, and that's at Chelsea Piers, which came on the scene about 30, 40 years ago. Um, so there's a real shortage of ice time, and you've asked any hockey player in New York City, and everybody's looking for ice time, including figure skating in Harlem. So we took whatever ice we could get. Um, Riverbank State Park, which is right in Upper Manhattan off 145th Street, was in the neighborhood, and we were able to get our foot in the door there, and we just, you know, rented the rent and rented out the whole ice and and made it our own.
SPEAKER_04That's awesome. You know, you work with hundreds of girls annually on the ice now. Your staff features more than 75 coaches, teachers, tutors, counselors, um, and 100% of recent senior age girls graduated from high school. Is that right?
SPEAKER_02Oh, yes. For actually many years now, we have 100% graduation rate, matriculation, and matriculation to college. So we're we're very proud of the fact that, as you said, skating's a discipline, and the kids who are in our program stick with it for you know three, four, five, sometimes 10, 12 years, their whole childhoods. They develop that discipline and they apply it uh to shooting for the best colleges uh around.
SPEAKER_04Didn't has it been your experience that a lot of the girls really get into the sport? I mean, not just playing it, but watching it, watching the Olympics, watching the national champions, watching their various competitions out there.
SPEAKER_02Well, if you're gonna spend eight to ten hours of your life outside of your school hours every week practicing something, you have to have a passion for it. And sometimes it's really cold. It's not an easy sport to learn. You fall all the time. But our uh young women who join synchronized skating teams and get to compete, it's really a passion. So I would say um absolutely, it's uh it comes from a sense of joy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you know, um the old uh peanuts cartoons had a had a um depicted uh a trope of uh ice ice skating coaches. Uh Snoopy was uh Peppermint Patty's ice skating coach, and uh she would say, How did I do coach? And he'd say growl, snarl, snap. And that was his uh, it was sort of like this uh the you know the archetype of the the grumpy skating coach. Um you know, let's disabuse uh our listeners of the notion that that that skating coaches are these uh psycho psycho uh people who are trying to get is that is is that something where you know maybe some some skaters have that and then trying to find uh coaches who are maybe a little less uh you know uh tough on their on their charges. Uh answer that I mean and answer that in two ways.
SPEAKER_02First of all, I did grow up with some of those grumpy coaches. It is uh an old school kind of sport. I think it's changed, but figure skating in Harlem turned it on its head. It's a very white sport, it's an exclusive elitist sport, and we democratized it and we made it an inclusive environment, a caring environment, a community environment. And that wasn't really what I grew up with. Um, but it was intentional that you know, skating's a vehicle to give our girls, you know, essentially the opportunity to make all the choices they want for their futures. And you know, we've had some you know amazing young women, all of them uh come through here and have many have gone on to do some great things.
SPEAKER_04Uh have there been any success stories that in particular are just something that really make you feel good about the program?
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh, they all do. There's there's really too many to mention. I mean, we have several of our alums working with us in the organization now, our assistant skating director, Hila Epperson, and she's going to be featured in a docuseries coming up about figure skating in Harlem. Um, there's Flo uh Gala, who is she uh Forbes listed her in 30 under 30 for her being a photographer. And she recently photographed Vice President Kamala Harris for for Rolling Stone. She's photographed for J GQ. Um, she's just a superstar, but they all come back because what we're able to create is a real sense of authentic community and a home and a safe atmosphere. And again, that's not necessarily that doesn't necessarily happen out in the sports world generally.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, this seems to be a great marker of of your success if people come back. Um so I want to ask, how do you how do these skaters start in the program typically?
SPEAKER_02One foot at a time, one glide at a time. They don't have to have any experience. We start at six years old. Um, the one thing they have to do is make a commitment for one whole season. So they start with us, um, they get started in late September, early October, and they go until the end of May. And uh we like to say it's gonna be cold out there, you're gonna fall, and no matter what, you have to persevere because that's the number one lesson you learn in doing a difficult sport is how to is perseverance along with setting goals and disciplines. So we uh we make sure that they are well supported, but that they're able to take risks, you know, they're not treated like you know, little dolls. I mean, they have to get out there and they have to fight and and work hard.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, which is funny. It's like you know, you see the the the skaters and they look, you know, they're doing these uh pirouettes and and you know, sow cows or whatever, and it's uh it seems dainty, but it you're you know, uh interesting point about the how tough it is uh to be able to do those things that look so so beautiful. Um you've obviously had a lot of success. There's now a docuseries in the works about a trip that your girls took to South Africa to teach young girls there how to skate. Please tell us about that one.
SPEAKER_02Well, we were very fortunate. Um, our story is rather unique. And by the way, we do have a satellite program in Detroit that's also very successful. But Ron Howard from Imagine Documentaries came to us and said, we really want to tell the story. And uh so they hired an amazing um producing team and directing team. And uh the docuseries is coming out this February, we believe. I don't want to give any too much specifics, but but basically um you'll get to see the grit behind the beauty that becomes what they it follows them through competitions, it follows them through their ice show, but ultimately it follows a group to South Africa because we had some students um literally take the trip of a lifetime where they became the teachers and they began to teach kids who had never seen ice before. Um, they were surfers and our kids learned how to surf, but the the fact that they could take this skill and bring it to a place where it was not common, uh, they got to feel sort of how I felt when I first started and teaching um unexpectedly.
SPEAKER_04So is it easy to find uh ice skating rinks in South Africa?
SPEAKER_02Well, there there are a very few uh in South Africa, and actually there are competitive skaters in South Africa, but very few kids of color. So um again, the sport is homogenous, it's changing a little bit, but in my run over the last three decades, I can't say it's changed substantially. But figure skating in Harlem has constantly been a place for girls of color to feel safe and supported and to learn something that um let's say the doors were not always wide open to them for.
SPEAKER_04Right, right. You're you are now also working on getting a dedicated home rink uh and an academic wellness center in Harlem. There's not an easy task, but to do that in New York. How's that process going? How's that progress?
SPEAKER_02Boy, well, as I said, iCE is at a premium. There's very little ice, and uh it is essential to the work we do. Um obviously, we do a lot of education, off-the-ice, financial literacy, communications, public speaking, um, key, you know, tutoring, uh, college prep. But, you know, without the ice, we wouldn't be figure skating in Harlem. So we have been looking and we think we've identified a place and we're working with uh our teams to um make real this dream of a Harlem ice facility that would be welcome to the whole community. And honestly, there's never been an ice rink in Upper Manhattan ever, and it would only be the second indoor rink in Manhattan, and the last one was built, you know, 35 years ago. So it's about time, huh? It's about it's really about time. I mean, so much of this is about access. I was, you know, grew up in Delaware and Wilmington, which happened to be a hub of where figure skating was. So it was, I just fell into it. But, you know, it has to become a uh if you want many more people to experience, you know, the the lessons of the sport, you have to reach out into the communities where it's not currently being promoted.
SPEAKER_04Right. Tell me how the Heisman got involved with uh figure skating in Harlem and uh tell me about the sport, the support that you get from the from the trust.
SPEAKER_02We are beyond grateful to the Heisman Trophy Trust. They've been supported for more than a decade. Without them, we couldn't be doing this work that we do. As you said, we serve hundreds of girls every year. We have a summer camp, we have an after-school program. Our girls spend many hours on the ice, off the ice. Um, the education and leadership aspects are as important to us as the all-night benefits of the athletic uh work on the ice. Um, so they pay for things like ice time, but also, as you know, we have coaches and counselors and tutors and social workers uh to provide all these services. And um we're very grateful.
SPEAKER_04You've also had support from a handful of Olympians. Uh, which ones have been part of the program? And do they ever join the girls out there on the ice?
SPEAKER_02Chris, a handful is an understatement. We have been blessed by having the support of starting with Scott Hamilton from the very beginning and Dick Button, who are legends in our sport, um, on to Michelle Kwan and Christy Yamagucci and the current skaters like Evan and Maddie, and the current Olympians, um, Jason Brown, Nathan Chen, um, female skaters, Karen Chen. I mean, there's just there's so many, I don't want to leave anybody out. But the reason there's been an outpouring of support for us is because in the elite world of skating, they really see that um that the service we're providing at the graspers level is just as meaningful. You know, very few people make it to the elite level in any sport, right? And then they have a shelf life. But here at Figure Skating in Harlem, it's a way of life, it's a community, it's a support system, it's about health and wellness. And we're really proud that we could change the sport in a way.
SPEAKER_04Well, it sounds like a wonderful organization, which is, I guess, which is definitely one reason why the Heisman is involved. Uh, tell us, tell our listeners what they can do uh to get involved with uh figure skating in Harlem, especially those who might live in the in the New York area.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, wherever you live, just it was such an off-handed way that I got involved. I just literally someone asked me and I walked through the door. So say yes when people, you know, you have something that could be of service, just say yes. I would say one, it's enriched my life far more than I can imagine anybody else's, um, and and uh filled me with a tremendous gratitude. I would also say if you're in the New York City area, you know, come to our events. We do ice shows, we do competitions, come see us in the classroom. We we need tutors, we need um teachers. We're always looking to expand our community, join our young professionals group, we have a board of directors, you know. This all takes resources to be able to provide it. As I said, you know, skating is an elite expensive sport. So if we're paying six, seven hundred dollars for an hour of ice time, that's just one hour. And the, you know, we we do hundreds of hours uh of skating time. So if you can support our, we have team uniforms, we have equipment and the skating equipment, um, you know, sponsor a coach. Uh so um, you know, and and and cheer us on, really. That that's that means a lot.
SPEAKER_04Our listeners can find more information about this great program at figureskatinginharlem.org. Sharon Cohen, thanks so much for coming on the show. We really appreciate your efforts. And on behalf of the Heisman Trust, we wish you the best of luck going forward.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Chris. I appreciate you as well. Thanks.
SPEAKER_04And that'll do it for this week's episode of the official Heisman Trophy Podcast. Thanks for listening. Big thanks to Kansas State for hooking us up with Avery Johnson. Thanks to Phil Steele and Sharon Cohen for coming on and sharing your stories, and we'll see you next week. The official Heisman Trophy podcast streams every Wednesday during the college football season and is hosted, co-produced, edited, and engineered by Chris Houston. Paul Goldberg is the executive producer and editor. Special shout out to Isaac Lohenkrong, and big thanks to the Heisman Trophy Trust and its executive director, Rob Whalen, and Associate Director Tim Henning. The official Heisman Trophy Podcast can be found on Spotify, Apple Music, and anywhere you listen to your favorite podcast. You can also find clips of our show on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. Just go to Heisman Trophy.
