SPEAKER_03 0:35

Here's your host, Chris Houston. Welcome to episode 14 of season two of the official Heisman Trophy podcast. There's about three and a half weeks left until the 2024 Heisman Trophy ceremony takes place in New York, and it looks for now like we have a favorite to win the trophy, Travis Hunter, wide receiver and cornerback of Colorado. He's the leader in the clubhouse right now, not a feta compli by any means. There are still some games left to be played, some very big games left to be played, and things could still shake up quite a bit. One little note 30 years ago this season, 1994 Heisman Trophy winner Rashan Salam won Colorado's only Heisman Trophy, so potentially Hunter could be the second on the 30th anniversary of their first win. We've got another great show lined up for you today. Ralph Russo of the Athletic, formerly the college football writer for the Associated Press for about 30 years. He joins us today to talk about his new position at the Athletic and also to opine on everything from the playoff to the Heisman to officiating, you name it, we talked about it. And then coming up in our B block, do you ever wonder what it's like to get an interception? The nation's leader in that very category, Noel Williams of the California Golden Bears, comes on the show to break down everything it takes to pick one off. And then after Williams, we're gonna talk to perhaps the best tight end in the country. I'm talking bowling green's Harold Fannin Jr. He's putting up some crazy numbers for the Falcons. And when it's all said and done, he could just be the Mackie Award winner this year. All right, we're gonna get to everything we have planned in the show, but first we're gonna talk to Associate Director of the Heisman Trust, Tim Henning, and he's gonna let us know about the plans for this year's post-Heisman ceremony banquet that will take place the day after. Tim, how's it going? What's going on, Chris? Going well. How's everything with you? Very good, very good. We're getting close to Heisman time, and usually uh there is a Heisman gala the night after the Heisman, usually on the Sunday night. That's how it's been in recent years. This year, the Heisman Trust is doing things a little bit different. Can you tell us what's happening?

SPEAKER_05 2:40

Yeah, absolutely. We've transitioned for the first time in what we think might be almost 90 years from that traditional uh black tie gala that we've had to actually a brunch format this year. Um, you know, so so many changes going on, obviously, as you're well aware, and you know, uh in the college football uh landscape these days and with the expansion of the college football playoff schedule, uh, knowing that there's a high likeliness that you know the finalist and the newest winner uh has the potential to potentially uh play in one of those bowl games. Um we had some meetings earlier in the spring and we met with a lot of different constituencies from ESPN to Heisen winners and uh spoke to a number of uh folks in various athletic departments, and uh we decided to uh move to a brunch and uh we hope that the newest winner, whomever that might be, will be able to stick around uh for our brunch on Sunday morning, the morning after the TV announcement. Uh, you know, stay for it and then you know head home that afternoon so he can get back uh to campus, assuming you know he may have practiced or whatnot, uh, rather than him sticking around a whole other day.

SPEAKER_03 3:46

Well, uh one of the more appropriate things in New York is a brunch. Brunch is very uh popular in New York City for sure. Uh there's gonna be the usual array of uh past winners. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_05 3:57

Yeah, correct. Um, you know, people that have attended our Heisman Dinner Gallery 4 used to kind of, you know, uh a um two and three-tier Deus with various dignitaries, many of which were Heisman winners, but also other dignitaries for the world of college football, previous Heisman humanitarian winners, um, other folks, you know, again in the college football industry. This year we're really focusing, you know, on the winners themselves. The whole theme of the brunch is 90 years of legends. And our Dais this year will just feature the Heisman Trophy winners themselves. Right now we have uh, I think about 24 Heisman Trophy winners lined up to attend, which is great. Uh, we're hoping to get confirmation of a few more. Um, but yeah, the focus is really to celebrate 90 years of Heisman Legends. Um, obviously, we'll recognize the newest winner and we'll recognize some of our anniversary recipients, uh, but there'll be a much greater focus on all the Heisman Trophy winners uh this year for our brunch program.

SPEAKER_03 4:52

And there'll be the 50th anniversary winner, like you mentioned, Archie Griffin, at least one of his Heisman trophies uh will be celebrated. Ron Dane, Ron Dane is the 25th anniversary winner. Is he play is he gonna be there? Yep, Archie and Ron will both be here. And I imagine Marcus Mariota uh might not be there due to his uh schedule.

SPEAKER_05 5:11

He'll he's he's playing uh I want to say New Orleans, I think.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

Okay. All right. Well, um, and then also the Heisman Humanitarian Award winner, uh, will will that person be at the event?

SPEAKER_05 5:22

Yes, it will. And we're really excited that we're honoring Misty Copeland this year, uh kind of groundbreaking uh US ballerina. Um, really so we're really excited to honor Misty and and uh you know recognize all the great work that she's done with her foundation. Um, and and that'll be exciting as well.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Well, I'm very excited to talk to Misty eventually because uh usually I just get to talk to sports figures and and she's kind of sports adjacent, athletics adjacent. So that should be very exciting. Can you tell our audience if if they happen to be in New York City or if they want to go to New York City and take part in Heisman Weekend, what's the best way to go about do it, what's doing it, and what's the best way to find information on the whole process?

SPEAKER_05 6:04

Sure, absolutely. I mean, the easiest way is Heisman.com. If you go to Heisman.com, the main banner right underneath uh right on our website uh has a banner where you can click to purchase tickets to attend the brunch. Um, you know, we have a you know, in addition to the brunch program itself that we talked about, we have a pre-reception. Uh that's we're adding a lot of new fun activations. There'll be an opportunity for guests um to get their photos and autographs with Heisman Trophy winners, get their photos with the Heisman Trophy. We're gonna have some some other cool fun activation stuff going on and during that event. Um, you know, this is an event that you can bring children to, uh, especially you know, compared to an evening gala that you know, this type of event really lends itself to uh you know bringing kids to the event. I think uh it's a great opportunity to uh to kind of witness history firsthand and be a part of you know this 90th celebration.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

Well, Tim, thanks for all that all that information. To those of you listening, I can vouch for just how remarkable uh these uh events are surrounding Heisman Weekend. I fully recommend you going to Heisman.com, looking into it, getting a ticket, and really just having an unforgettable experience at the Heisman Brunch. Tim, thanks for coming on and telling us all about it. Absolutely, Chris. Thanks so much. Thanks, Tim, and we'll be right back with Ralph Russo. The Heisman is handed out every December, but the history of the trophy lives year-round at Heisman.com. Home to the most iconic trophy in sports, Heisman.com tells the stories of all 88 of our winners and features news, bios, and statistics on all your favorite Heisman heroes. Heisman.com also highlights our Heisman humanitarians, the many charities supported by the Heisman Trust, and so much more. Make Heisman.com your first stop for all things Heisman.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

This is Archie Griffin, 1974-1975's Heisman Trophy winner, and you're listening to the official Heisman Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 7:53

Welcome to the show, Ralph Russo of the Athletic. So many years the college football writer for the Associated Press. Those of you of you out there who follow college football have no doubt read him over the years, maybe sometimes unknowingly. I think it's great that he's over at The Athletic now because I feel like he gets to really show his stuff and and give his opinions more. And so it's a very exciting move. Ralph, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_07 8:16

Yeah, uh, thank you very much, Chris. Appreciate you uh having me on. And yeah, it's been it's been interesting. Like not to get too much into me, but like you spend 30 years at one place and then uh switch to another it within the season. It's uh it was a little bit of a shock, but but it's been a great opportunity and everything's going wonderfully.

SPEAKER_03 8:34

You've been enjoying it pretty well, uh doing uh all your uh beats now?

SPEAKER_07 8:38

You know, you know, to a certain degree, I'm basically doing the same job. I'm just doing it for a different company that gives me some different uh opportunities in leeway. Um and again, uh nothing but gratitude for all the time I spent at the AP. Uh, but you know, at a certain point in your career, when you get a chance to do something different, that's cool too. And that's what I, you know, I had a chance to do here.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

Does this mean you're not gonna be coming to the Heisman Trophy Ceremony?

SPEAKER_07 9:02

It does not mean that. So there was a little, there was some question about whether I was gonna be covering because they have some different priorities and we have a lot of people. Uh, but it was actually my my just last night, my editor told me, Oh, yeah, yeah, we want you to go to the Heisman. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

So we'll see me again. Yes. Awesome, awesome. So I want to just kind of get your viewpoint on everything that's going on in college football, just to but we'll keep it light and short, as short as we can. Um, but I'm curious, it seems like your beat uh for the athletic has been the 12-team playoff and kind of talking about uh what's been uh going on with that. Where do you see how that's shaking up, shaping up right now?

SPEAKER_07 9:43

Yeah, I I think the playoff has consumed a lot of college football because it's the first year and it's new, and we're all trying to digest exactly what the playoff means to a certain degree and how it affects the regular season, what's the dynamic of like what games are big games? And so far, frankly, I think it's it's worked out great, right? Right, like Arizona State and BYU are gonna play this weekend, and it's an enormous game, and back in the old system, it would not have been. So we have a lot of uh more interest in more places in college football and more fan investment and and team investment in ways that I think have really been tremendous for the game.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

Yeah. One thing I'm really curious about is how the fans are going to take to the playoff, not in the sense of all the extra games, but I get the sense that not everybody knows exactly how it works to get in. Everyone's like, okay, yeah, we want to make the 12-team playoff very good, fine. But I feel like we're now getting to the stage in the season where we're gonna people are gonna be taking crash courses in the rules, at least the the casual fans are. And I'm just really curious about how they're going to take uh all these rules and and the way things work compared to before.

SPEAKER_07 10:59

It is a quirky system, right? And I'll I'll I'm happy to run through it. And it is something like from someone who's covered it, and remember, I I've been covering the transition to this system since 2021. So I'm very familiar with its quirks, but I can also understand why fans just a few weeks out are not, right? Just like we're really about to, we're gonna do this thing now, and you still don't really understand how it works. So, right, it's it's the five highest ranked conference champions that get in, that are reserved spots. The top four get buys. So you can be the 10th ranked team, but the number four seed, right? And that's most likely the way it's gonna work out with like a Big 12 or an ACC champion. There's seven at-large bids with no cap on where those bids can go. Looks like the SEC and the Big Ten are gonna pretty much scoop up most of those bids. Uh, but again, this idea of I could be the third ranked team or the second ranked team in the country, but also be the fifth seed or the sixth seed is something that I know I've tried to explain to people. I'm gonna give ESPN credit for this too. I think that they've done a they've definitely made an effort to try to explain it in their broadcast and games and and the playoff rankings like we'll have later tonight. But I also understand why people might not be totally grasping it because they're just not paying really close attention.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

Uh how much of an impact do you think the playoff race is is going to have on the Heisman race itself?

SPEAKER_07 12:40

Yeah, you know, it's funny. I think we talked about this maybe like last year when I was on your show, and I I believe it's playing out similar to what I thought it might. A lot of this stuff we're we're stepping into the unknown, and it's been hard to understand how it's gonna work. This one, I think we had a pretty good idea, and it seems to be playing out that way. And I think what it's doing is it's uh it's widening the field. I think we had gotten to a point where if you were not among the playoff contenders, it was getting trickier to be a Heisman candidate. Now, Jaden Daniels last year broke the mold, but he did it with a pretty historically great uh performance. Right. He had to he had to be uh be up and be uh be beyond, I'll think a lot of other players to to and he had the uh benefit of maybe a couple of the playoff teams. You looked around and like, yeah, I don't really see a candidate on that playoff team. You know, JJ McCarthy is a good player, but his stats aren't really uh built up. So I but I think Jaden was a little bit of breaking the mold of what we had seen normally. And I think what's happening now is uh a guy like Ashton Genty, who's an amazing player, but is also still in the playoff race. Travis Hunter, who's an amazing player, otherwise would not have been in the playoff race, is now in the playoff race. So I think uh well, I think those guys still could have been worthy contenders and Heisman contenders before, I do think it it elevates their candidacies to, so to speak.

SPEAKER_03 14:20

Yeah, that makes sense. It kind of elevates the quote unquote less uh prominent players and maybe dampens the ceiling of the more prominent players uh in a sense, is what it seems like so far this year, because we're not seeing a lot of uh, you know, the top player on top team getting a whole lot of uh attention. Of course, I think the stats have kind of uh tapered off a bit as compared to what we've seen in recent years uh with Heisman challenging quarterbacks and so on and so forth. Uh before we go on to more Heisman, I just want to ask you one more thing about the playoff. Why does the committee release rankings every week? I know I know that I know that the I know the answer is that they want to generate interest, but we have AP polls and coaches polls to sort of do that, and there's never any lack of things to talk about. But I was always thinking that maybe a a reveal the way the NCA tournament does for basketball at the end of the year where you you see the homework done or whatever at the end, versus having it go on uh week by week, and the anguish and the and the nerves and the tension among fan bases, which it inevitably boils over when a team doesn't make it. Um any insight on that, on why that is?

SPEAKER_07 15:32

So listen, as with most things in college football, it's very much a TV decision. I I think ESPN uh likes having that engagement and and the and the show draws some. I I don't listen, I don't think they're monster ratings, but I think the show does draw enough interest and enough ratings that it also keeps people thinking and talking about the playoff. Um I will say I I I'm with you. Like I think that it becomes I don't know if you need them every week. I think in some ways it under it it puts the I think it puts the committee, quite frankly, in a little bit of a tough spot because it allows them to be overly scrutinized four weeks out when you know the how much the the ranking matters even is questionable. And now because everybody's a conspiracy theorist, it's like, well, they're biased against this team, they're biased against that team, uh, my school's getting the shaft and this and that and the other thing. So I don't know if it necessarily helps the credibility of the system, but it does keep people talking about the system. I think what you could do, uh I don't want to get too long-winded here. I also think there's a there's a there's an element of um owning the rankings and not letting the AP poll, the coaches poll set the agenda for November. But I think what you might be able to do, and this is something they do do with the NCAA basketball tournament, is do a look in, right? Yeah. You know, where we're at this point of the season, here's what the committee is thinking. We're not gonna come back next week and do this again. But at this, uh, you know, on October 31st, this is what we're we're looking at. Yeah. And then maybe you hit it one more time in mid-November, three weeks later, and say, you know what? I think this is kind of what we're looking at now. And then now we'll tell we'll come back to you at the end of the season. Because I you're right. I don't know if they're good for the game and the system. I do think that they are pretty good for TV and getting people talking about it. And I think for television networks, there's more value in that.

SPEAKER_03 17:38

I mean, I I personally think that one big reveal show would blow out all ratings compared to the cumulative, you know, weekly rankings, but what who am I to say? Uh obviously, you know, controversy and argument is the mother's milk of of college football. So the 12-team playoff certainly gives more opportunities to argue, more data points to argue about. Heisman Trophy. This year, we're seeing players who typically wouldn't, at least on the last 15 years ago, which uh you know I call the spread quarterback era since 2007, and Tim Tebow, we've had uh these quarterbacks that have pretty much put forth these incredible numbers, usually above 4,000 yards total offense, 43 touchdowns, I think is the average for the Heisman winning quarterback during that era. There's been a couple, uh there's been a running back, there's been Derek Henry, uh, and there has been um uh uh receiver. Receiver and Devon, Devon Devon Smith. Yeah. But uh this year we're seeing uh a two-way two-way player in um Hunter, Travis Hunter of Colorado, and and we're seeing a running back from Boise State in Ashton Gente, and uh we're seeing Cam Ward, uh formerly of Washington State over at Miami, and we're seeing Dylan Gabriel, uh formerly of uh two other schools uh at Oregon. And what's interesting to me, and I think it's kind of part and parcel with the direction the overall sport is heading, in which the whole recruiting game that we used to follow is sort of dead now, right? It's basically some kind of bidding on players. We don't really it's sort of a black box, we don't really know what goes into uh these decisions the same way the way we did previously. Uh but all four of those players I just mentioned, who I think at this point are are pretty likely or maybe the favorites to be the four finalists, not except for Travis Hunter, not highly recruited out of out of high school. And not in the sense that these were like the elite athletes. Hunter was obviously an elite athlete. Um do you think that this is a harbinger of things to come because because in this new era with the the transfer portal and NIL and the ability of teams to just suddenly you know create a team from scratch uh that competes, like look look at Indiana, we're gonna see a lot of more of these types of Heisman races where it's not dominated by spread quarterbacks and it's sort of a mishmash of things, or is this just a a year that that doesn't really have a rhyme or reason?

SPEAKER_07 20:05

I I do think that this will is more likely to be an outlier season, uh which is good. You know, it does keep it more interesting. I I love the idea that like it's a it's an interesting, different looking field, and you're getting some pulling some some teams in here or some players in here who don't fit a lot of like the just the the more recent traditional model. Yeah. Um I don't know if necessarily I I will say this. I do think the transfer portal, because there's been a bunch of transfers that have won the won the award recently, that's become a a normal thing. Um I do wonder if because of the transfer portal you see more uh interesting development stories like Cam Ward. Uh you know, we talked about Indiana. I think if there's a player who has a chance to, you know, sort of uh surge at the end, I think if Indiana were to beat Ohio State this weekend, suddenly Curtis Rock's name, my guess is that would be a pretty prominent one. And maybe Will Howard, if uh if Ohio State wins, the the winning quarterback of that game has the potential, the stage to get in there. And that's another guy. Like, you know, neither of those players were highly rated. But I do wonder if the transfer portal has a has a uh has a path for good players at maybe teams that they would have been flown under the radar throughout their career to then, like a Cam Ward, to find themselves on bigger stages at the end of their career and become, you know, not just the the the under recruited kid who had a great college career, but the under recruited kid who has a great college career and ends his college career that started at incarnate word at Miami, right? So I do wonder if that that dynamic and allowing some of these kids to transfer up creates more players like Cam Ward.

SPEAKER_03 22:10

Mm-hmm. That's a great point. And you know, uh getting back to the playoff real quick, Indiana. We mentioned Indiana earlier and Curtis Work potentially being a late breaking Heisman candidate because they do play Ohio State uh at noon on Saturday, uh this coming Saturday. And one of the things about Indiana's that's interesting, most of the time when you see a team of a program of that stature going on a great run, it's a lot of um smoke and mirrors happening. Usually they're winning some close games, they're Cinderella, but Indiana's been dominant for the most part. They've they have a top three offense and a top five ranked defense. They're they're very good on both sides of the ball. And uh until they beat Michigan by five, no one had come within 14 points of them, and until uh till the I think some point of the eighth game, they had not even trailed all season. And yet, and yet uh I understand that they are number five in the in the playoff rankings, but it seems like there's a couple teams that were have not been quite as dominant uh that are ranked ahead of them. And it still seems that there's still this you know, I don't even I don't know if it's a conscious bias, but Indiana has more to prove than Ohio State does or Texas does because they're Indiana. That just it still doesn't seem fair.

SPEAKER_07 23:34

Indiana, I and I I I'll pat myself on the back for this one. When the first playoff rankings came out what three weeks ago now, I wrote a column that said Indiana is going to be the most interesting playoff contender. And because of some of what we're talking about, they are a flashpoint in two directions. I think some people look at Indiana and think, you know, that's a pretty good team, and I don't think they're getting enough respect because they're not a blue blood, they're not Ohio State, they're not Texas, they're not Penn State, you know, teams that they're all behind, but they're undefeated. And but then I also think, and this I think is a fair criticism, they haven't played a tough schedule. It's been actually really like it is it is without question the weakest of the schedules among the the uh the contenders, but they have beaten the tar out of those teams. And that means that that's meaningful. Like I am a big like it's not just who you played, it's how you played. So it is super meaningful that they have been as dominant on their way in a season where Old Miss lost to Kentucky, Tennessee lost to um to uh Arkansas, Notre Dame lost to NIU. Like taking care of business and doing it emphatically almost every week is a really important part of it. So I think Indiana is is sort of stuck in between two arguments. Hey, they're not getting enough respect. Look at the team, look at the blue bloods ahead of them uh that don't that haven't been as dominant. Oh no, they're getting too much respect. Look at these other teams that have played much harder schedules that are stacked up behind them. How would they stack up against Tennessee or Ole Miss, right? So I think that they are a fascinating team. We're gonna find out a whole lot more about them on a Saturday against Ohio State. And, you know, I'm gonna be like, listen, I I'm like part of me wants to see this season get rewarded, but I will also be fair. Like if they come out and Ohio State runs them out of the horseshoe, I'm gonna be a little more skeptical of what I had seen the first 10 weeks.

SPEAKER_03 25:46

Well, what if they beat Ohio State by a touchdown? Are they number one in the country?

SPEAKER_07 25:51

I don't know if they're number one. You could probably make a good argument because if you're starting to like how that common opponent thing And in the horseshoe. Yeah, like Oregon beat them at home by one, and if you beat, and if Indiana wins, you know, by seven or ten on the road, that's a hell of a win. My guess is they probably don't get to number one, but I again it it goes back to that flash point, right? Are they getting too much respect considering their overall schedule, or are we not giving them enough respect because it's Indiana and we ex we want Indiana, it just doesn't feel right, right? Like we Indiana has to prove themselves double, right? Because it's because of the history. And neither of those, I don't know if either of those arguments for or against them is totally fair.

SPEAKER_03 26:38

Yeah. Well, it's gonna be a great game on Saturday, that's for sure. Question about coaching. Think back to when that point in your career, not your career, not your career specifically, but in journalism, where uh writers had to suddenly start doing social media and podcasts, and and it wasn't just enough to go out and write your story. You had to go and do all do all the video stuff. Everyone had to learn it. And some people were better at it than others, and I think some people who weren't as good at it maybe didn't proceed uh as fast as some of their their cohorts. The the reason I'm bringing this up is I think it relates to coaching in this era in college football, where it seems like there are some coaches that were really good before this new environment took hold and they're struggling in the new environment. And then there's some coaches that maybe we didn't know how good they were because under the old environment they were at disadvantages perhaps based on you know situations uh can make a coach great, right? Uh so do you think it's it's we're seeing that with coaching where where the the job description is completely different than what it was before when a lot of these coaches got into the profession, and maybe we're seeing some coaches having a hard time adjusting?

SPEAKER_07 27:58

So the two people who come to mind quickly um in that discussion, and I don't know if it's solely the reason, but I think that they're like if I'm if I'm extrapolating your theory, and I think of Lincoln Riley struggling at USC, and I think of Brian Kelly, you know, having some ups and downs, certainly down this year and down the last three weeks that they haven't won a game at LSU. I I don't think you can have the conversation about those coaches without saying how much of this is about the environment, right? Like I don't know if it's fully the answer, but I think you're not having you're not thinking about it in the right way if you're not saying, like, maybe this person's issue is they're having a hard time with the idea that you have to be a little bit of a general manager and that the field is sort of leveled to a certain degree because of NIL and transfer portal. So you can't just hoard certain amount of talent. Um, and the coaches who are adjusting to those things. And again, we're sort of talking very anecdotally about all this stuff. Sure. I think of like Dan Lanning and Kenny Dillingham, who are both having terrific years, and some of these younger coaches who I've talked to them about it and wrote a story about it actually, you know, at the beginning of the season, this sort of like, hey, like, I'm not here to complain about the changes. I just got to adapt. Right. And I do wonder if certain coaches, their methods and the way they've gone up, gone about things, it's a little harder for them to adapt. Not because they're even belligerent or they don't want to, but hey, man, I've been doing it this way for 20 years. Yeah, I gotta figure out a way to do it, as opposed to a Dan Lanning or a Dillingham who's like, hey man, I've only been in this job for 10 years as an assistant, so it's a little easier for me to adapt.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

Right. Makes total sense. And of course, we're probably gonna have some even more changes uh coming up soon and hopefully kind of level things off and stabilize things uh in with those rules. Another thing you wrote about recently uh is officiating. And um, this is a kind of a curious topic for me because it seems to like you talked about in the recent story you wrote about officiating, talking about Utah's athletic director complaining uh about that big call and how how how um you know how out of the ordinary that is, and and you're kind of warning people not to fall into the conspiracy uh of of this type of thing. And and it's funny because again, that's kind of college football fans are always sort of paranoid about these things. And now that there's a lot of money involved, and there's you know money very visibly involved, there's always been money involved, but not in this kind of visible way. It seems like it's maybe possibly going to feed into more conspiracy theories because now there's motives, uh, there's a lot of gambling involved now with with football. It's like very open. Um and I've noticed, and and it could just be confirmation bias, uh, anecdotal evidence, but I watch games now. I feel like I feel like they're holding on every play so in some of these games in in ways that that uh that I hadn't seen before. And am I just am I taking crazy pills or what's going on?

SPEAKER_07 31:17

So uh yeah, I have got a lot of like different ways my mind goes with officiating. I tend to be a little more um uh protective is not the right word. I I tend to um try to push back against the the concept that the officiating is worse than ever. Yeah, I just don't know if that's even possible because there's so much more training and things along those lines. And how can you measure it anyway? Yeah, and the game is getting harder to officiate. Let's let's make that clear at all levels because the athleticism is crazy and uh it's a little harder to find officials. I think that there are like I definitely think officiating needs to be better. I definitely think that college football needs to be more, and this is always a problem in college football, Chris, and you understand this because you've been around the sport, right? No one's really in charge of the greater good.

SPEAKER_04 32:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 32:14

And I think that would help officiating if there was sort of a little more of the conferences giving up control, maybe an outside, really empowered body that trains officials and gets and and and and coordinates officials in a way I think that might help. Um what what I wrote about about you know when it comes to after what happened with Utah is more of I don't know if it serves the purpose of making things better if people in leadership positions are using the really inflammatory language of this was stolen from us. Yeah, fair point. And not to just not to just single out Mark Harlan at Utah, but you know, Kirby Smart said something similar in the Texas game, and they won the Texas game. And he was talking about they tried to steal it from us with that weird, and it was a botched, it was a botched process, though they got the call right in the end. Right, right. The process was botched. So I I get it. I think officiating does need to be better, and I think that there are probably good like good ways to systematically work on that, but I also am very leery of fanning the flames of this is rigged, this is purposeful, the the conference office is pulling the strings here or there. Like I just think that those are two separate issues and we can work on them. And people in leadership positions should not be, you know, pushing, allowing the everything is is sort of being pulled behind, you know, everything is being dictated by money behind the scenes. Right. You shouldn't be feeding into that.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

Yeah, that's a great point. Uh it seems to be a societal issue broadly. Um I'm gonna finish with this one question. It's been gnawing at me for a long time, and I've been thinking about in my head how how the to best go about investigating this. And and let me tell you, maybe you'll hear this and think, oh, that's a great idea to investigate. And if you do, you've got to like come on the show, either come on the show again and talk about it or like give me full credit for for instigating this. Okay. I want to know, Ralph, whatever happened to the ineligible athlete? Yeah. So it used to be like one, maybe two on every team every year, and like last eight or nine years, they just they've gone away.

SPEAKER_07 34:42

So I got a couple of different theories. It's an interesting, I got a couple of different theories on that. And like I think one is good and one is maybe a little more nefarious, right? I I do think schools are better now. Well, and and this has a double-edged sword to it. I think schools are better now than ever before about keeping their players eligible. Now, the good part of that is I do think that there's real concerted effort to make sure that like there are staffers, right? There's a there's a there's an academic staff and people who are literally their job is make sure the players are staying on top of their academic stuff, right? Right. So when you have that much support and guidance, I think it helps in a good way players matriculate towards an education. Sure. Now, the other side of that is I think schools are very good at figuring out how to keep guys eligible, even if that means, you know, maybe they're not taking the hardest courses or yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:45

Like we're giving-cause guys are going to guys are going to like three schools in three years. Like, I mean, how do you transferring the units and and getting everything over there and adjusting to all that? And yet there's there's never you never see any casualties of that.

SPEAKER_07 35:59

Yeah, and again, I I do think that like it's it's part there's there's like there's two sides of that coin. Again, like we have gotten very good at figuring out how to keep people eligible. Yeah. And the and the promising side of that is guys are getting degrees, and maybe they are like getting real education, and we're figuring out how to like, but the the the the problem side, the downside of that, I think is you can push anybody through and you can figure out a way to keep them eligible, just to sort of like, hey man, like we're gonna get you these three online classes and it'll all work out in the end. I just think that the schools have gotten good at, I don't want to say gaming that system, because that might be a little too cynical, but I think they they've just gotten good at figuring out how to get it done.

SPEAKER_03 36:46

You may be right, but I I think they all got good at this exact around the exact same time because before that they were all in the same boat. Anyway, Ralph Russo, thanks for joining us at last moment's notice to come on the show today. Uh it was great conversation. Loved your opinions. I love seeing you over at the athletic. Uh, tell our audience where they can find you uh when you're not at the athletic.

SPEAKER_07 37:07

Yeah, well, very easy on social. And I haven't necessarily migrated to other platforms, probably will at some point, just to sort of spread my spread the wealth around, spread my goodness around. But the easy way to find me again, like all my articles are at the athletic. And if you have don't have a subscription, there's a ton of great people there to subscribe for and me. Uh so hopefully, hopefully I'm part of that. And on social media, very easy, uh, at RalphD Russo at excuse me, at RalphD Russo A T H. For a long time it was at RalphD Russo A P, but now it's at Ralph D Russo ATH.

SPEAKER_03 37:42

Yeah, just type in Ralph Russo, but look out, there's another Ralph Russo who has a a blue check who is definitely not the Ralph Russo I'm talking to right now. So anyway. Hey, Ralph, thanks again, and and we'll see you down the road. See you in New York. Yeah, thank you, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

This is Karsten Palmer, 2002 Heisman Trophy winner, and you are listening to the official Heisman Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 38:04

Thanks so much for tuning into this week's official Heisman Trophy Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please take a moment to like, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support helps us reach more listeners just like you and keeps us motivated to bring you great content each week. Don't forget to follow us on social media for updates, behind the scenes content, and more. Any other feedback or questions, just email us at pod at heisman.com or just drop us a note on our social media platform. So I've got a good friend, let's call him JP. He's a huge fan of the California Golden Bears. The man has what he himself calls a sickness. He just can't quit his bears. Now, I've been sending JP links to the podcast. You know, that's what you do to your friends. You uh send them your stuff and you hope they support it. Well, our next guest is Noel Williams, premier cornerback for the California Golden Bears. And Williams is gonna break down for us what it's like to get a pick. And after the interview, I am once again going to send the link to this podcast to my friend JP, tell him that there's a cow bear player on the podcast this week, and then see if he listens. Because I'm not sure if he's really been listening to this point. But if he hears this segment, he's gonna have to mention it to me later. Noel Williams of the University of California, currently the nation's leader in interceptions with seven, also second in pass breakups with 14. Thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy Podcast.

SPEAKER_09 39:27

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

Interceptions are one of the hardest plays to execute in football, but also one of the most exciting to witness. If it's okay with you, I want to delve into the specifics of what it's like to snag a pick, the craft of defending a pass, and all the things that go into it. You ready?

SPEAKER_09 39:42

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_03 39:44

How much of getting an interception is instinct versus preparation? Do you study specific tendencies in quarterbacks or receivers to anticipate those opportunities?

SPEAKER_09 39:54

I for sure anticipate the opportunities. You know, throughout the week, uh goes into film study and um, you know, reading, make sure you're you're reading the right keys before the play, and then um during the play, it's all instinct, instinct knowing what's going to happen before it happens, and um just trusting my preparation, my coaching, and uh my skill and my eyes and my feet.

SPEAKER_03 40:17

It seems like a lot of interceptions take place in the final two minutes of either half as offenses try to put together drives. As a defensive back, are you an extra high alert to be ready for a pass that might be forced by the quarterback in those situations?

SPEAKER_09 40:32

For sure, because I know that's a situation where they have to pass the ball. If it's the last two minutes of the half or end of game, I know kind of what they do, uh, you know, setting their two-minute uh offense during the week and um say it's the end of the half. I know they're trying to get out of bounds. If they're depending on where they're on the field, are they being the play clock? Are they behind the play clock? So all that plays a part into it, and then end the game, it's kind of like quarterback wants to rush downfield sometimes if he's not an experienced QB. So they tend to make some mistakes, throwing it down the middle or throwing it outside, being not being on the same uh communication with their uh receiver. So I for sure take want to take advantage of those opportunities and just trust in my uh coaching just getting the call.

SPEAKER_03 41:22

Yeah. What's going through your head as a play unfolds? Are you reading the quarterback's eyes or the receiver's movements or both?

SPEAKER_09 41:30

Uh kind of both. Um I kind of see kind of QBs kind of uh peek at you, see what you're in, and you just kind of get it's like spidey senses, you know. You kind of get this thing going, like, oh, they're gonna go at me. So you kind of look at the formation and then just um play your keys, make sure your eyes are right on the man, depending on the what call it is. Because you can get interceptions in any call, cover two, cover one, cover three. So depending on the coverage, I gotta make sure my eyes are right. If my eyes are supposed to be in the backfield on the QB clued to the QB, they're supposed to be Q'd on the QB. If it's man, just eyes on my man, and then when he gets out of his break, I get out of my break, and then I can get my eyes back to the ball.

SPEAKER_03 42:12

What are the most important skills or techniques that you rely on to put yourself in the right position to make an interception?

SPEAKER_09 42:19

Um, I would say uh my feet at the line of scrimmage, just make sure I win at the line of scrimmage, trying to uh mirror his release and then staying top shoulder, not falling behind the receiver. And um, yeah, I would say those are the things that are important to me. Um just winning at the line. Because if I don't get an interception, it'll be incomplete. And you know, that's how that helps us win either way, but interceptions are better.

SPEAKER_03 42:45

Yeah. Can you describe the feeling of actually getting interception in the heat of a game? Like what's running through your mind as you make that play? I mean, does it just everything happen too fast to even think?

SPEAKER_09 42:55

Everything does happen fast. Um the more they come, though, it's kind of slows down. But when you have the ball in your hands, it's like you're just happy you made a play, um, a momentum shift for your team, whatever situation you guys are in. Uh just happy um was able to contribute, you know, get give the ball back to my offense. And uh yeah, it kind of goes fast. It's been slowing down lately because now I've, you know, I kind of had a knack for the ball, so it's kind of slowed down a little bit, but beginning of the season's kind of happened all fast, kind of blur.

SPEAKER_03 43:30

How much of that is just kind of luck? Sometimes the ball bounces the right way, sometimes you're just in the right place at the right time. Is it just a combination of all those things?

SPEAKER_09 43:38

Yeah, it's a combination of everything. Just doing my job, and sometimes the ball will just end up in your hands and uh capitalizing on the mistakes the QBs make, the receivers make, but the offense make. And uh I just gotta know I just gotta know when the time is right to maybe take a risk, maybe just do my job. So it's kind of everything's a coming.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

Yeah. And after you make the interception, how do you suddenly shift gears to thinking about returning the ball? Are you just looking around for blockers, open space, trying to secure the ball?

SPEAKER_09 44:10

Yeah, if I catch an interception and still my feet, I I can try to I try to hit the sideline first, or if it if it's just kind of my situation, just get as many yards as possible, make sure there's no double turnovers, make sure I have the ball high and tight, you know, make sure um I just get as many yards as possible, get good field position.

SPEAKER_03 44:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 44:29

So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

Have there been moments where you missed an interception that taught you something crucial? Like how do you bounce back and improve from that kind of situation?

SPEAKER_09 44:38

Um just don't get in your own head, just next play mentality because that might not be your only opportunity. Can't dwell on as a DB, you gotta have short-term memory. And um just no, you're gonna get another opportunity. It might not be this game, might be the next game, might be two games from now, but you're gonna get an opportunity again because uh QB's gotta pass it, you know, uh in this day and a college football.

SPEAKER_03 45:03

Yeah, you got 14 career interceptions, seven this year, uh, four of them have come on the road. And you know, Cal's uh had a four big trips to the East Coast this year.

SPEAKER_04 45:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:14

Does it make a difference whether you're on the road or at home? Does it is one easier than the other?

SPEAKER_09 45:18

It doesn't really make a difference to me, but I would say being on the road does, you know, it just you have a chip on your shoulder knowing everybody in the stadium is not with you and your team is just kind of like your team versus everybody. So it's kind of like a different mindset, I would say. On the road, you gotta be Road Warriors. That's what Coach Wilcox always preaches. Gotta be Road Warriors. And um, but being at home, getting an interception at home is probably better because you know, people are actually cheering for you. So I don't know, it they're both they're both good. Like hearing the royal crowd and then silence in the crowd, you know.

SPEAKER_03 45:50

Right. Is there a particular interception in your career that stands out as your favorite or your most meaningful? And what made it so special?

SPEAKER_09 46:00

I would say the second pick in Auburn. That was a meaningful interception for me because they were gonna drive, I think they were there in two minutes, two-minute drill, and it was 21-14, and um I feel like that was like the dagger, like really cause after I got an interception, fans started leaving. You know, the crowd, like everybody just gave up. So it was like it took it took the air out of the building for sure.

SPEAKER_03 46:27

I guess that is something that defensive backs have uh in their arsenal. They can help clear a stadium for sure, right? For sure. But what advice would you give to a young cornerback who who wants to excel at reading the game and making the kind of big plays that you've made all year?

SPEAKER_09 46:41

Uh I would say just keep working on your craft, keep working on your change of direction, uh, just keep watching the game, keep learning the game. There's always something you can learn every day. Playing defensive back and uh you know, the process you you can put all this work, you know, the pro the results might not show until uh one year, two years, three years from now, just keep going. You know, because defensive back is a hard position. You might be in a good position and the you still don't make the play. You just gotta keep going, keep your head up.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

You guys are five and five this year, but you've lost four really close games. You could very easily be have eight or nine, ten wins. Yeah. Uh you guys have Stanford coming up this week, this weekend. What's the mood like for you guys getting ready for the big game?

SPEAKER_09 47:29

I feel like the energy is up in the building, um, always for the big game. I know it's the I think it's the oldest rivalry in college football. And um just trying to put on for the people that came before me, people that are gonna come after me and the community, and just trying to keep the accent in Berkeley. So um we're definitely on edge this week. All the coaches are on edge this week, and it's gonna be a fun, exciting game for sure.

SPEAKER_03 48:00

Well, Noel Williams, thanks for coming on the show. Congratulations on a great season, great career, and we wish you the best of luck in the future.

SPEAKER_09 48:09

Thank you, Chris. Let's talk to you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 49:05

On the season through 10 games. He has 83 catches for 1,170 yards, eight touchdowns, six foot four, two hundred and thirty pounds, a man of few words, but he makes his presence known on the football field. You're gonna hear more about him soon. Let's go talk to Harold Fannin Jr. Harold Fannin Jr. of Bowling Green, thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy Podcast.

SPEAKER_08 49:28

Yep, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 49:30

Your team's coming off a big 31-13 victory over Western Michigan, a game in which you had 10 catches for 137 yards and two touchdowns. Falcons have now won four in a row and five of six, tied for first place in the Mac. What was the mood like in the locker room after that game? And how did you guys approach the bye week from a preparation standpoint?

SPEAKER_08 49:51

Uh the mood in the locker room, you know, it was great. Obviously, a big win. Uh needed to uh, you know, obviously for our goals or whatever. And uh, you know, for the bye week, you know, we just mainly focus on just uh getting healthy.

SPEAKER_03 50:04

Uh bowling green is now six and four, but all four of your losses this season have been close. They've been hard fought games, including against two ranked teams on the road. There are no moral victories, but it seems like this bowling green team is one of the most underrated teams out there right now. When did you have a sense that this could be a pretty good team?

SPEAKER_08 50:21

Uh, you know, uh I knew it since Fall Camp, you know. Uh all the work the guys put in, you know, the coaches, everybody. Uh I knew, you know, I mean, uh coming into this year that we had a good shot at uh, you know, run a uh making around for it.

SPEAKER_03 50:36

Yeah. You had a pretty decent game to start out the year, six catches for 67 yards against Fordham, but then you really exploded against Penn State in Beaver Stadium with what were then career highs of 11 catches for 137 yards. Looking at the matchups going into that game, did you have a feeling that you were gonna do pretty well? And how much confidence did it give you afterwards to play so well on the road?

SPEAKER_08 51:00

Uh, you know, I always got confidence because of the work we put in. Uh, you know, I never really look at the matchups. Uh, I just think about just doing my job, you know, whatever that is. And I'm glad it uh it played out like that.

SPEAKER_03 51:13

You even attempted a pass in that game and came pretty close to completing it. You've attempted one pass each year of your career, but you're now 0 for three, unfortunately. Are you hoping you get a chance to complete one before it's all it's all over?

SPEAKER_08 51:25

Yeah, man. Yeah, man, still wishing for him.

SPEAKER_03 51:28

Ever since that game, you've been on an absolute tear, putting up all kinds of crazy numbers for a tight end. There's one play in particular, a 65-yard touchdown run against Texas AM that I think really showcased your talents. What do you remember most about that play?

SPEAKER_08 51:41

Like a busted coverage, and then I just caught the ball and just do what I always do. You know, just make something happen.

SPEAKER_03 51:49

Yeah. You come from Canton, Ohio, went to McKinley High, which has quite a few famous alums. When did you get involved in football? Did you play any other sports as well?

SPEAKER_08 51:57

I played baseball my senior year. That's that's about it when I come to uh high school.

SPEAKER_03 52:03

So so just baseball and then football. But what what what attracted you to playing football?

SPEAKER_08 52:08

Actually, my grandfather, uh, when I was younger, we used to always sit down and just watch uh football. So he basically got me into that.

SPEAKER_03 52:14

Did you have any favorite teams growing up?

SPEAKER_08 52:16

Uh no, but my brother, he loves Stillers, so you know I always had to watch the Stillers.

SPEAKER_03 52:20

Right. You were a linebacker, defensive back, and a receiver in high school. What was your recruiting process like?

SPEAKER_08 52:25

My sophomore year, I got uh a couple like uh Mac offers, you know, to uh play DB. And then uh coaches got fired, COVID hit, you know, uh uh stopped going to school for a little bit. So then I basically, you know, lost all my offers off of that. Yeah. In my senior year, talked to a few schools and uh, you know, just wanted to uh continue to play offense, so ball and green game of the shot.

SPEAKER_03 52:50

So I can hear we've had a lot of players from Texas on the show this season and they like to brag about their state's high school football, but you're literally from the place where the Hall of Fame resides. Tell our audience a little bit what Ohio football is like.

SPEAKER_08 53:06

I mean, it's like just where it started, so you know, like it's uh very competitive, I would say. Uh, you know, it's a little different from like those southern states because you know it gets real cold up here, so you get a lot of grit and stuff like that. But honestly, them was my best years, man, in high school. I would say until I guess first day of like camp with pads on, I'm like, all right, I'm really in here playing tight end, you know, it's different, bigger guys, you know, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 53:44

What was the most challenging aspect about switching over and playing that spot? And what do you love most about the position?

SPEAKER_08 53:50

The most challenging part I would say would be like because in high school I was more of like outspread, so like I didn't have to really like maneuver, like you know, do like traffic and stuff like that. I say that was like the more challenging part. And uh the part I love the most is obviously you know, you always in a progression, you know, close to the quarterback, so you always can see.

SPEAKER_03 54:09

Yeah. You line up all over the field, sometimes as an inline blocker, sometimes in the slot, sometimes wider in motion. What's your favorite place to line up and what do you consider your bread and butter play call?

SPEAKER_08 54:23

You know, me uh keep it simple. I like line up out wide and go and getting the ball.

SPEAKER_03 54:29

What do you need to work on to become a more complete tight end?

SPEAKER_08 54:32

I probably would say uh more of like inline blocking. You know, I don't really get a lot of that on tape, so I would probably say like more of that.

SPEAKER_03 54:40

Yeah, the tight end position, of course, is one of the great weapons in the modern football era. Who are some tight ends you look at and try to model your game after?

SPEAKER_08 54:49

Uh I don't really watch tight ends, but you know, when I think about it, uh probably like Travis Kelsey, uh what's his name? Gronkowski, you know, one I used to always see.

SPEAKER_03 55:01

It's probably like uh well here's a name that you should check out. A guy named Shannon Sharp. I think uh you have a lot of uh similar attributes as him. Did you know that two tight ends have actually won the Heisman before? I have not both those guys play defense, but one was actually from Ohio. He won it in 1936. You're listed at 6'4-230. Do you envision playing it this way in the future, or do you think you can still bulk up some more?

SPEAKER_08 55:23

Oh, I can bulk up some more.

SPEAKER_03 55:24

Yeah. And uh not lose that speed.

unknown 55:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:27

What do you like to do when you're not playing football?

SPEAKER_08 55:30

Uh I like to fish, play the game, no stream.

SPEAKER_03 55:33

Uh-huh. Uh you like to actually go on the on the lake and fish or uh Yeah, like no, no, no, like a little pond or something.

SPEAKER_08 55:39

Not too big. Yeah, get all the angles.

SPEAKER_03 55:41

Yeah, what's your uh what's your favorite fish to catch? Uh bass. Bass. You eat it afterwards or do you throw it back? Nah, nah, I just throw it back, yeah. And finally, who've been the biggest influences both on and off the football field for you?

SPEAKER_08 55:53

That's a great one question. I'd probably just say my coaches.

SPEAKER_03 55:57

The coaches?

SPEAKER_08 55:58

Yeah, I'll say my coaches. Uh, you know, always just hold me accountable with stuff like that, making sure I'm on the right hands.

SPEAKER_03 56:15

Well, Harold Fannin Jr., thanks for coming on the official Heidsman Trophy podcast. Good luck against Ball State on Saturday and the rest of the season.

SPEAKER_08 56:22

Yep, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 56:25

Well, that'll do it for this week's show. I hope you enjoyed it. I know I did. Special thanks goes out to Ralph Russo, to the University of California Golden Bears, and to the Bowling Green Falcons. Thanks for all your help in getting this show done. Next week, Miami's Cam Ward returns to the show. Last time he was on the show, last year he was a Washington State Cougar. No more. Also, Penn State tight end Tyler Warren and the athletics Stuart Mandel. See you next week. The official Heisman Trophy podcast streams every Wednesday during the college football season and is hosted, co-produced, edited, and engineered by Chris Houston. Paul Goldberg is the executive producer and editor. Special shout out to Isaac Loencron, and big thanks to the Heisman Trophy Trust and its executive director, Rob Whalen, and associate director Tim Henning. The official Heisman Trophy podcast can be found on Spotify, Apple Music, and anywhere you listen to your favorite podcast. You can also find clips of our show on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. Just go to Heisman Trophy.