SPEAKER_06 0:03

Welcome to the special I think.

SPEAKER_07 0:35

Here's your host, Chris Houston. Welcome back to another episode of the official Heisman Trophy Podcast. We have a great show for you this week. Some weeks in podcasting, you know, it just all comes together, and this is one of those weeks. Kicking off the show, we'll have Tyler Warren of Penn State, tight and extraordinaire, one of the most versatile players in the country in a year when versatility is highly valued. Did you see Tyler Warren against USC? It was pretty incredible. 17 catches. He was throwing it, he was running with it, he was even hiking it. So we'll get to him in a minute. And after Warren is the athletics, Stuart Mandel, editor-in-chief of their college football coverage, like Ralph Rusto last week, a friend of the pod, and we had a great discussion. And then to close things out, perhaps the best athlete ever to appear on the Heisman Trophy podcast. And that's a pretty esteemed group because that includes people like Tim Brown and Barry Sanders and so on. I'm talking world-famous elite ballerina, Misty Copeland, who is the 2024 Heisman Humanitarian Award winner. We got a chance to visit with her and learn about the tremendous work she and her foundation are doing. So that's our lineup for this week. We hope you enjoy it and we'll see you on the other side of this break with Penn State tight end Tyler Warden. We're celebrating 90 years of Heisman excellence at the new Heisman Legends brunch on December 15th, the day after the Heisman ceremony. Join the Heisman Trophy family at this historic gathering as we celebrate nine decades of Heisman history while featuring an extraordinary lineup of Heisman winners from the 1960s to today. We'll have an exclusive meet and greet for our guests to connect with Heisman Legends, followed by a celebratory brunch. This is your chance to be part of an unforgettable afternoon. Not only will you hear our Heisman winner stories firsthand, you'll also support the impactful charitable work of the Heisman Trust. Secure your tickets now for this special event. Space is limited and you won't want to miss it. Go to Heisman.com to reserve your tickets today. This is Steve Spurrier, 1966 Heisman Trophy winner, and you're listening to the official Heisman podcast. Well, if you cover college football for a living, you probably noticed more emails in your inbox from Penn State this week than usual. And that's because Penn State is pushing its tight end Tyler Warren for the Heisman Trophy. Now, before you scoff, keep in mind that two players have won the Heisman Trophy while playing tight end. The second Heisman Trophy winner, Larry Kelly of Yale in 1936, basically played tight end. Same goes with 1949 Heisman Trophy winner Leon Hart of Notre Dame. Now there is one minor detail, both of those players also played defense, so they were tight ends and defensive ends. Now, in the modern era, no tight ends have really factored in the Heisman race except for one. Ken McAfee of Notre Dame finished third in 1977, the year that Earl Campbell won the Heisman for Texas. But in the era of Heisman finalists that spans from 1982 onward, no tight end has ever made it to New York. Although that could change this year, you never know. It very well could be. Tyler Warren, Penn State tight end. Thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy podcast.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Yes, sir. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_07 3:48

Your school's now making a push on your behalf to get you to New York, complete with a video from Rod, Rob Gronkowski. What do you think of that effort and all the attention that it's bringing?

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Uh yeah, I mean, you know, it's cool. It's cool to be in that conversation and to kind of, you know, like I said, be in that conversation. But I think it's it's also a lot of a lot of help that you get from your teammates and stuff like that, and a lot of things that go into to guys making plays and especially on offense, there's 10 other guys that have to execute their job for one guy to, you know, kind of get open on a play and do stuff like that. So it's uh it's a cool thing, and I think a lot of credit goes to a lot of the guys around me as well.

SPEAKER_07 4:24

How did you guys manage to get Gronk uh on board for that whole process?

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Uh I think that was something that one of the one of the stations had had done uh before, and they kind of used that, used some of those clips in that, but but yeah, that was that was kind of a different thing. They just worked into it.

SPEAKER_07 4:40

Got it. Okay. Well, since Heisman finalist began in 1982, no tight end has ever made it to New York for the ceremony. But did you know that there have been two tight ends to win the Heisman? There was Larry Kelly in 1936 and Leon Hart in 1949, but they also played defensive end. Do you think you could play DN too like those guys did?

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Uh, I don't know if I could play as good as good as the DNs we have here, but I'm I'm sure I could line up and do my job, but probably not at the level that that we do at Penn State. So it'd probably be a bad move on our part trying to put me out there instead of some of those guys. But yeah.

SPEAKER_07 5:12

Well, versatility seems to be the theme of this college football season, and you have helped to epitomize it, catching the ball, running the ball, blocking, throwing the ball, putting the ball, even hiking the ball. You weren't doing all this stuff last year. When when and how did this process begin to reshape the offense to find ways to have you do all these things that tight ends don't typically do?

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Yeah, I think I think part of it was uh Coach K coming in, and that's kind of the the way he is with display con, is using guys and whatever they do best and whatever's gonna help out that offense. And and it's you know, I I did the the Wildcat stuff a few years ago that I hadn't done in a little bit, but then he knew I could do that. So then just kind of building off that as we got more comfortable throughout the offense was kind of how it worked, but but it's I just really enjoyed doing it because I feel like tight end is is a position that does a little bit of everything, and we just kind of expanded on that a little bit, but it's been it's been really fun, and I'm glad it's it's worked out for our offense.

SPEAKER_07 6:03

Yeah, how does that process work as far as like does he come with you and sit come to you and say, hey, I've got a new play where you're gonna do this, or is it just like is it just unveiled to you in the the week's playbook? How how does that all work? Was it the whole conversation that what you're gonna do is is just kind of be all over the field?

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Yeah, I think mostly week to week, it'll just kind of be they'll send out the the installs and and then there'll be the plays on there where different guys are doing different things. So and I think a lot of his, you know, Coach Howell kind of trusts me, and I think he might he might push me for some things when when they're looking for guys to do stuff because I've been with him for a while, so I feel like he he trusts me, has a lot of trust in me. So that's kind of just how it works. You'll see it, see the game plan that week and then get prepared and learn everything you got to do that week, but it's it's been fun.

SPEAKER_07 6:46

Yeah. They line you up all over the field uh to great effect. But where's your favorite place to be when the ball is snapped?

SPEAKER_02 6:54

That's a good question. Um I don't know. I honestly don't know if I have a I guess I guess one where the play works out and we get an explosive player score touchdown. So I don't know if it's a specific position, but but whatever's gonna you know work out that week is is kind of been my favorite thing. And and doing different things to kind of open up the offense has been has been great.

SPEAKER_07 7:14

If you weren't playing tight end, what position do you think you would be best at?

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Well, I played quarterback in high school, so I I I'd like to say that, but I don't know if I still still have it like I used to. But um, but yeah, I guess guess maybe quarterback if I had a a few weeks to to get back into quarterback mode and train like that.

SPEAKER_07 7:33

Sometimes when you do a lot of things, you kind of spread yourself thin and aren't necessarily able to do one thing really well. You're good in so many areas, but what's an area you think you can get better at?

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Um I'd say kind of going back to the fundamentals. I think when you do a lot of different things, you kind of it's harder to focus on little things and and be so uh detailed with it. So I think that's something that that I've been I've been still trying to focus on, but always can can do better at and making sure I'm still doing the little things right and run game, pass game, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_07 8:05

I've been watching college football for a long time, and I've never seen a tight end dominate a game quite like you did in the Coliseum against USC. Tied a college record for a tight end with 17 catches. And of course, there was the famous trick play where you snapped the ball and then went out to catch the touchdown pass. Tell me about the origins of that play, what you thought when you learned about it, and how many times did you practice that before running it?

SPEAKER_02 8:26

I mean, yeah, so they they put it in. Or the first time I saw it put it in, I was like, we all just kind of looked around like this is what this is what we're doing. But uh yeah, after that, it was kind of every week we'd we practiced it a few times, and then going into that week, he he told us he was like, it's it's coming out this week, you know, we we're gonna want to call this. So we practiced it a few more times that week, obviously. And then actually when we when we ran the play, I was supposed to run like a corner to the front pylon, but one of their safeties just kind of fell down in that area, so I ended up just keeping it up the middle of the field, and then Drew, Drew was on the same page with me and and gave me a chance. But it was you know, it was really cool to be able to run that play and it it worked out like that after all the practice we've done and just having it in the playbook for so long.

SPEAKER_07 9:07

Is it like when you learn that the play is actually called, is it pretty exciting to line up and just is there an extra jolt of energy compared to like other plays that aren't aren't as special?

SPEAKER_02 9:17

Yeah, I think there is a little bit of that, but also it's in the in the heat of the moment and just you know kind of having your training in your back pocket and you've done it a million times. So just lining up and and doing it like it's another play is I think something that we've done a really good job of this year with all the different stuff we do. So that was that was kind of cool to, you know, no one really did blink an eye or change their change how they were feeling. They just ran the play like it was any other play and it worked out.

SPEAKER_07 9:40

You were a quarterback in high school at Atlee High in Mechanicsville, uh Virginia. You also played basketball and baseball, but the projection was that you would become a tight end during the recruiting process. What was your recruiting process like and what schools were you considering?

SPEAKER_02 9:53

So it started off as pretty much all quarterback. That's uh I was committed to Virginia Tech to play quarterback my sophomore year, and then kind of junior and senior year, some basketball. I sent out some basketball film and then some tight end offers started coming in and stuff like that. And uh it was something I was interested in. I was never like set on I had to play quarterback. I I'd only started really playing real quarterback in high school. But uh, but yeah, and then obviously Penn State in general is just a great place to come go to school and play football, and then to play tight end at Penn State is kind of a whole nother level and something I really had took a lot of honor in and be able to do that. So that's been really fun, and and I'm glad I made this decision. And I think it was I think it was the right transition. You know, I think I probably would have been a better tight end than than a quarterback at this level. So it's good.

SPEAKER_07 10:36

You started to really come on last season as a junior, but the jump in your production as a senior has been really dramatic. 75 catches for over 900 yards so far. To what do you attribute this improvement?

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Um, I think I think a lot of it is the tight ends I was around kind of as I grew up here. There's there's been a lot of great guys who've all played in the NFL now and are in the NFL. So learning from them was really great. And then I think, you know, just my teammates trusting me and the coaches trusting me to get me the ball and and you know, trust me to have the ball on the offense is something I I've built as I've gone out through my career. So it's been really fun. And and to be able to, you know, represent my teammates here and kind of help out the offense how I have this year has been you know what I really appreciate about it, and knowing that it's helping the guys around me as well.

SPEAKER_07 11:21

Yeah. Does your versatility give you an advantage in that it makes your role on a given play more unpredictable, which might make it harder for the defense to account for you?

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Yeah, I think I think that is, you know, something that that we try to do with with a lot of guys is put them around in different different positions and move them around before plays just so it's one more thing that a defense has to be thinking of or one more check they have to do. It's kind of our advantage and and keeping it simple for us, but making it look like there's a lot going on to to try and get them, you know, get them to be thinking a little bit more before the plays is kind of what we what we try and do as an offense.

SPEAKER_07 11:54

Yeah, looking ahead to the next level, do you do you think that you'll be uh used in the same way or do you think it'll it'll be kind of revert back to a more traditional tight end uh role?

SPEAKER_02 12:03

I'm not sure. You know, when when that when that time comes, I'll that'll be, you know, I'll figure that out. But but it's been I've I've enjoyed doing it here and and whatever that might look like it would look like, and I'll I'll do the best I can at that job. And that's kind of you know how I approach how I approach everything that we do kind of in the sports, just doing doing my job and doing it the best I can.

SPEAKER_07 12:22

What about off the field? Would you say you're a predictable guy or do you like to keep people on their toes?

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Uh I'm pretty predictable. I'm not don't do too much. I'm probably either golfing, fishing, or just hanging out, hanging out with my friends, you know, just sitting around talking, stuff like that. So nothing, nothing too crazy, just like to hang out and chill if I'm not, you know, doing something football related.

SPEAKER_07 12:42

The Nittany Lions are coming up a hard-fought win over Minnesota on the road. You got Maryland coming up on Saturday at home. What's the mood like with the team right now? What are the coaches telling you as you prepare for your final home game of the year?

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Yeah, I think, you know, obviously it is senior night, so knowing that and make sure you're enjoying the moments with your teammates will be important, but also we still have uh a lot on our plates in front of us and stuff to accomplish. So taking it one game at a time and understanding this game's as as important as any game we've played this season. So having a great week of preparation will be huge for us and you know, just keep keep trusting our process as we keep going.

SPEAKER_07 13:16

You're now in your fifth year in Happy Valley. What will you remember the most about your college experience?

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Yeah, I think you know, playing playing in Beaver Stadium and all that is something you'll remember forever, but I think something I'll hold you know closest to me is just the relationships I've built with my teammates and kind of the memories we've had off the field. And and these are guys that I'll I'll stay in touch with for the rest of my life. So it's been really awesome to come to a place like this and make such great friends and you know, playing playing a sport we all love.

SPEAKER_07 13:49

Well, Tyler Warren, tight end extraordinaire. Thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy Podcast. Best of luck the rest of the season, and maybe we'll see you in New York.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

Yes, sir. I appreciate you having me on.

SPEAKER_07 14:00

Thank you.com. Home to the most iconic trophy in sports. Heisman.com tells the stories of all 88 of our winners and features news, bios, and statistics on all your favorite Heisman heroes. Heisman.com also highlights our Heisman humanitarians, the many charities supported by the Heisman Trust, and so much more. Make Heisman.com your first stop for all things Heisman.

SPEAKER_03 14:44

This is Ricky Williams, 1998 Heisman Trophy winner, and you're listening to the official Heisman Trophy podcast.

SPEAKER_07 14:50

Stuart Bandel is the editor-in-chief of the Athletics College football coverage and one of the premier writers in the sport. Stu, welcome back to the show. Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me. Let's dig right into what the top Heisman candidates are doing now and what they have to do to win the Heisman, and then what you think is actually going to happen. First up, the noon slot on Friday features the top two candidates, Travis Hunter, Ash and Genty, each hosting an OSU, as it turns out. In Colorado's case, it's Oklahoma State. And in Boise State's case, it's Oregon State. Pac-12 champ, Oregon State. Um, which OSU do you think has a better chance of stopping or slowing down these premier players?

SPEAKER_05 15:29

Not Oklahoma State. Yeah, they're they're just not very good. Um and Oregon State's coming off a nice kind of, you know, snapped out of a skid and got a big win um against Washington State. We'll see which which version of Oregon State shows up for this one. Um, but man, at this point, Ashton Genty's about as predictable and reliable as they come. He's yet to have that game that running backs usually have where it's like 19 carries for 57 yards. I mean, he gets his 150 to 200 every week.

SPEAKER_07 16:01

It's interesting that both these guys are, like you said, players. You know what Boise State's gonna do. You know that he's gonna get the ball. You know that Hunter's gonna get the ball, and there's really not much he can do to uh it seems like there's not much they can do, but I want you to finish this sentence. The race is over if Hunter does what?

SPEAKER_05 16:20

I mean, I think the race might already be over. I feel like the the universal acclaim for Travis Hunter is so deep at this point that it's hard for me to imagine what Genty does. I mean, we've just become so numb to to 2,000 yard rushers. It's like he rash he reached 2,000 this weekend and nobody blinked an eye. Now, I will say the the advantage he's gonna have is he's gonna play on championship weekend for sure. We don't I mean, Colorado's gonna need some help. So that Friday night with a playoff birth on the line, yeah, a lot of people are gonna be watching Boise State that weekend, um, and Colorado might be sitting at home. Yeah, but I just think the awe around Travis Hunter is so great, it almost feels like the year Lamar Jackson basically wrapped it up with three games to go, and you know, his team lost and kept losing, and he still won it.

SPEAKER_07 17:10

Lost the last two games Travis Hunter's at.

SPEAKER_05 17:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 17:13

So you think the candidate see is so unique being predicated on his two-way ability that his team success is less important that his this is the bigger story surrounding his candidacy.

SPEAKER_05 17:23

Yeah, they lost 37-21 to Kansas, and I don't think it affected a single person's perception of Travis Hunter.

SPEAKER_07 17:29

Now, let's look at Genty though. The race is over if Genty does what the next two games.

SPEAKER_05 17:35

Runs for 300 yards back to back. Nothing like that. It really just shows you how hard it is. Now look, if you had told me, I don't know, six weeks ago that it would get to this stage in the season and it would seem like the only two guys that can win it are a running back from Boise State and a cornerback receiver on Colorado, like that's seemed preposterous. Surely uh uh Jalen Milro or Dylan Gabriel or somebody, some quarterback would have solidified himself by now. But I think the narrative took hold pretty early on that these are the two and they're so unique and they have a different background than then but it does seem like running backs just eventually hit a ceiling because they've already there's not some new, generally new territory they can hit, you know. Yeah, um there was a point where it looked like he might get to Barry Sanders, but even then people are like, well, he Barry Sanders did in 11 games.

SPEAKER_07 18:30

Right, right. Well, what if uh Hunter has one catch for four yards and gets beat on two deep bombs against Oklahoma State?

SPEAKER_05 18:38

Yeah, I mean that's that's definitely uh you know, that's a possibility. I say if you combine that with a just an absolutely huge finish from Genty, um that could happen. Uh I think the Travis Hunter, the other part of Travis Hunter is like he's a celebrity. He goes beyond just really good college player. Number one pick, you know, project assumed to be number one pick in the NFL draft. Um the Dion factor being on YouTube all the time. You just don't see a college player have that kind of profile usually.

SPEAKER_07 19:08

That's a good point. You've also got Miami at Syracuse on Saturday. Cam Ward still in good shape to get to New York. Do you think there's still an opening for him to sneak in there and maybe like just move up uh to you know above one of those two guys, if not compete for the champ for the Heisman?

SPEAKER_05 19:23

Problem is I mean, you know, SMU is now gonna be pretty highly ranked, so people will definitely be watching that game. And if he goes off on SMU, you know, I would think he I think he has a chance to move up to runner up. Um he does seem to be the people's choice right now for for a quarterback. I'm a little surprised Shador Sanders isn't getting more of that love. It may just be that you can't have two on the same team. I don't know. Maybe so. Um but but you know, he seems to be Cam Ward seems to be the one that is um of the quarterbacks the one at this point that's most likely to be in New York.

SPEAKER_07 20:04

Yeah. Well those three guys we talked about they seem like locks to me. Who do you think that fourth player will be and and who do you think it should be?

SPEAKER_05 20:12

Who I think it should be, Tyler Warren, because he's another guy who is playing such a unique role as the tight end, who's the go-to receiver on the number what, four team in the country, but also can they also use it running back. Um another guy who I feel like is a huge factor every single week, doesn't really have a game. Usually tight ends would have a game where they just vanish. Uh has not been the case with him so far. Um he's been, you know, we do our Heisman's draw poll at the Athletic. He's been I've been pretty consistent the last several weeks of uh having um Hunter, Genty, Warren. Um I do wonder if like it's been a little puzzling to me why Dylan Gabriel hasn't gotten more love. He is the star quarterback of the number one team in the country. He had a fantastic game against Ohio State. Um I think maybe people just view Oregon as more of a more than just the quarterback, you know, a very well-rounded team. But if it's an Ohio State Oregon rematch and he goes off on Ohio State again on the last night of the season, I would think he's at least gonna be New York.

SPEAKER_07 21:17

Very well could be. I'm gonna touch upon those uh that whole topic a little later on, but for now I want to turn your attention to the playoff race. Mainly I'm curious how you think fan bases have adjusted to thinking about the expanded field. Is there more or less engagement on the question of who should and shouldn't get in versus how it was with the four-team playoff and how it was with the BCS?

SPEAKER_05 21:41

Well there's definitely more engagement in the sport as a whole. We're seeing games nationally that nobody would have cared about. I mean, the fact that the shocker to me was that Georgia, Tennessee, Georgia already had two losses at that point. Tennessee's ranked seventh, not you know, second. Million people watch that game. That that's because that game had, you know, elimination stakes for those teams in a 12-team playoff. I I feel like this is the week where we started to get more into who should who should or shouldn't make it because of the Indiana story. It's just hard when there's so you know there's so much that can happen still that would impact. Like it's not even really clear who is the last couple spots going to come down to.

SPEAKER_08 22:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:24

So, you know, in basketball, you kind of know, I don't know, for a month leading into it, these are the bubble teams, and start debating their resumes. I mean, it might be that it comes down to I mean, going to last week, I thought it's gonna come down to uh Tennessee, Ole Miss, Indiana, and then Ole Miss plays their way out, right? So you just don't know from week to week who's still gonna be in the mix.

SPEAKER_07 22:46

Yeah. I asked this of your colleague Ralph Russo uh last week, which the question I asked was do you like how they come out with the the playoff rankings every week? Because I mean, to me, though I mean, showing something that's probably gonna look nothing like the end result early on, it's obviously intended to create discussion you know all the way through, but what if they saved it up for one big reveal at the end, like the the way they do with March Madness, where you kind of have this big, huge you know, selection Sunday or whatever it is. Do you do you like how it is now, or do you think it'd be better doing it that way?

SPEAKER_05 23:23

I think from a like a pure integrity standpoint, it they shouldn't be doing these rankings. Um, I think it would be very jarring if you didn't have any, and then it comes out on the last day and it's like completely different than the AP poll. I think you at least need to do like a check-in, you know, maybe a month beforehand. It's not gonna happen. I mean, it's a TV show, you know. ESPN's paying a ton of money, ton of money to show the playoff. And built into that is you're gonna have a weekly Tuesday ranking show. Like at the night that the first one was on the election night, and people are like, ah, I can't believe they're doing it on election night. That's crazy. It's like, well, ESPN isn't showing the election. This is this is what they have. So they want their content. That's what it is. It's content. But what it I do think what it does is boxes them in sometimes, yeah, where they've had a team ranked uh X, so it would be two like let's say Texas loses to AM after they've had them number three this whole time. I don't think they're gonna drop nine spots off you know, a road road, let's say last second field goal, road loss, right? But if you were just literally going into a room at the end and doing it from scratch, you might look at Texas and say, This isn't much of a resume. Like we don't this team, what has this team really done to justify being in the playoff? So they're kind of their past decisions box them into their future decisions.

SPEAKER_07 24:40

Right. Do you think, like once it's all said and done, once the 12 team playoff is set, do you think the team that performed best in the entire season will have the best chance of winning, or will it be the team that is playing the best right now?

SPEAKER_05 24:54

There's factor number three, which is your draw. And I don't know that we're gonna see how this plays out, but you know, I looked at the one that I did yesterday, and I realized that I would rather be because I have Ohio State winning the Big Ten title. So they become the one seed, Oregon becomes the five seed. And I was like, I think I'd rather have Oregon's draw. Yeah, you got to play the first round, but you're playing probably either the group of five team or the Big 12 champ. And if you win that, you're gonna play the other one of those, whoever gets the four seed. Of course, Ohio State, yeah, they're gonna get the first week off. They're gonna play an eight-nine winner who in mind is Texas versus Tennessee. You know, could be uh, you know, some other could be Georgia if Georgia loses the SEC championship. Because we're forcing the conference, fourth conference champ to get an automatic bid, and uh even though if they're ranked, you know, Arizona State's not even ranked anywhere near the top 12 right now, and they might get the four seed. It's gonna make, I think people are gonna be annoyed. Annoyed's not the right word, angry. Angry that it's not it's not a fair college football? Yeah, that the bracket's not fair, that it's not you know, seated right. Yeah. And so this is all a long way of saying your question about who I mean, I don't even know if it's about who's playing the best or who's the hottest or whatnot. It's just like who had to play, you know, who had to play uh Georgia, you know, a Georgia team that didn't have a great season, but we all know is talented enough to win the national championship.

SPEAKER_08 26:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:21

And who just by luck of the draw draws them in the quarterfinals, whereas somebody else gets Miami.

SPEAKER_07 26:28

Well, what's an under under the radar team that might catch fire come playoff time?

SPEAKER_05 26:33

Well, you know, I'll hear uh what I'll say is a lot of people made up their mind about Notre Dame when they lost to NIU. They're terrible, right? That game was so long ago and was clearly such a fluke. And they've just been kicking everybody's butt since then, right? And I expect they'll do that to USC. And then they'll get because they can't get an automatic bid, they'll be like the seven seed. I wouldn't want to play them. Um I think they're better than that.

SPEAKER_07 27:00

That would be weird if if Notre Dame, the the you know, the perennial traditional power, uh won the first 12-team playoff for sure. Um zooming out to some big picture stuff. I've been thinking about the status of the game as it stands right now. I know the popularity of the sport's gone up, but it seems to me like this year, at least, the quality of the product on the field has gone down a bit, at least among the elite programs. For instance, scoring and total offense are down. I don't see any truly elite offenses out there like we saw prior to the Portal era. Quarterback numbers are down a bit. You talked about Dylan Gabriel. You know, one reason everyone always says Heisman goes to top player on the top team. Well, his numbers aren't like how they've been, uh, you know, recent Heisman winners, they usually get 40 touchdown passes these days. The two teams that everyone says has the most talent, Oregon, Ohio State, they just don't seem as dominant as the teams that won titles before this whole thing started, like those Georgia teams that went back to back, those great Alabama teams. And you know, part of that is because those teams were grown together, right? And they had time to develop. Uh, this question seems to me to be symbolized a bit by the Heisman race. We have two excellent players from non-blue blood teams taking center stage. Are we just witnessing more parody out there? And have the defenses cut up to the offenses, and maybe the offenses need more time to gel because every year there's a new there's new players, and offenses take time to get guys acclimated to systems and learn the systems. And it just seems like things are a little more clunky than we've been used to, especially on the offensive side of the ball.

SPEAKER_05 28:27

Well, there's definitely more parody, and we're seeing that every week. And to that I credit the NIL and the portal and the ability for an Indiana to make themselves relevant overnight. But I think what you're describing in terms of like offensive numbers being down is specifically it being a down year for quarterbacks, which is not surprising when you look at the quarterbacks that left after last season. You know, Bo Nicks is starting for the Denver Broncos, Caleb Williams starting for the Chicago Bears, uh JJ McCarthy was a first-round pick. Obviously, he got hurt uh before his rookie season. Um it's just like there's you it's Jaden Daniels has been the star of the end of like that's a that was a particularly special class of quarterbacks last year, and and a lot of them were guys who could have turned pro the year before, right? And IL helped keep them in school for another year. So I just think it's kind of a bridge year at the quarterback position. Um, in fact, some and and and you know, some guys that were big time recruits haven't really lived up to that.

SPEAKER_08 29:22

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:24

You could have next year, you could have the next Jaden Daniels, and all those offensive numbers go back up. Like I just think we got spoiled. It seemed like every single year somebody would break the pass efficiency record that was set the year before, or the completion percentage record. And you know, the reality is like Joe Burrow is a unicorn. Um you know, uh uh Jaden Daniels.

SPEAKER_07 29:45

We've we've had a lot of unicorns lately that's a lot of unicorns recently.

SPEAKER_05 29:48

Jaden Daniels was probably underappreciated, even though he won the Heisman because of his path. Actually, I would say him, Bo Nicks, and Penix were underappreciated because they were all guys who earlier in their career wouldn't even have been on the radar. And they just transferred and they got better. And I don't think people I think now we're seeing them doing the NFL, people appreciate what a special class of quarterbacks that was. Yeah. It just wasn't realistic they'd have a you'd have another class like that the very next year.

SPEAKER_07 30:15

But isn't it hard for guys to develop when they're when they're going every year to different schools? And isn't it hard for those offenses to to become cohesive units?

SPEAKER_05 30:25

Pro probably. Now, the guys I just mentioned, Nick's, Penix, Dan, they all they all transferred, you know, at their at some point in their career. Um, some of those guys at least had a little continuity, right? Penix had worked with Kaelin DeBore, Calen De Boer before Nick's followed uh Kenny Dillingham to Oregon.

SPEAKER_07 30:45

Caleb to uh USC with Riley, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:47

Yep, yep. So that that was unique. Um, but yeah, I mean uh you look at some of these teams. I mean, Florida State right now is the this year is the living example of you can't just, you know, it's not on a chessboard. Right. You can't just take this transfer, this transfer, this transfer, this transfer, we'll pay this for the quarterback, put them all on the field and it all gels. And then Indiana is a great example of he basically pieced that, he took some guys with him from James Madison, but also a lot of uh guys that weren't and pieced it together and have something really special there.

SPEAKER_07 31:19

You're as plugged in as anybody. You talk to coaches and and you know, administrators and presidents. What's the next big thing coming down the pike for college football? What's uh are we gonna stabilize the situation? Or are things gonna settle down into a more kind of, you know, everything kind of evening out as far as everyone having the same opportunities?

SPEAKER_05 31:38

The the house settlement, the revenue sharing is obviously the the number one topic on everyone's minds right now. It will go into effect next by next football season, probably, unless the judge kind of slows it down. And everybody's gonna have to figure out how that works and how you allocate the money, and um in and that's gonna be a big adjustment. Uh I think a lot of the school administrators have this naivety that okay, we'll do that, and then that'll that'll make everything fine. You know, we won't have no. I mean, Michigan just got a quarterback because a billionaire his wife is a bit went to Michigan, right? Like, you think that's going away? You think like, oh, you guys have you you got this revenue sharing thing now, it's all under control. Yeah, that's that's not going away. Um, so I don't think I mean I think the thing that's settling down for now is realignment, just because these TV contracts are locked in for a while, you you probably won't have another big shakeup for a while, but it'll come at some point.

SPEAKER_07 32:36

Yeah. We see guys go to the NFL out of college and they get the big payday, and some guys have that crazy drive to keep working hard, and and that's why you see players who are uh maybe undrafted free agents making teams because they they had that work ethic. And some guys, just like anybody would, just like any of us would, you get the big payday, and maybe your sense of urgency isn't as great, maybe you feel you've made it, right? And so my question is if you accelerate that timetable ahead four years, uh you get freshmen making, what is it, 12 million, 12 million a year, how do you or how do coaches um keep them motivated? I mean, uh, it's like the old system wasn't perfect, but you you did have players whose goal was to get to the NFL, so therefore there is a little bit of extra motivation to become better. And I'm not saying that that motivation doesn't exist, but certainly isn't it gonna be harder if guys are making just these outrageous sums and and God bless them for it? No one's saying they shouldn't earn it or shouldn't don't deserve it. But isn't it gonna be natural that in players where you know the the prefrontal cortex doesn't fully develop until age 25, in you know, executive decision is decisions are controlled by that that part of the brain. So imagine uh someone who's 18 with a lot of money in a in a in a very uh uh fun city. How are we gonna get the best performances out of out of these players given that that circumstance?

SPEAKER_05 34:06

I don't I don't know. I mean first of all, there aren't many guys making in college what you can make in the NFL. I mean, e even the guys that are on the high end of it, you know, I would hope realize or have people telling them that this is nothing compared to your first rookie contract if you can turn yourself into a first-round pick. Um, but the other stuff is something coaches are dealing with every day. This is a totally new new dynamic to have a player. I think the thing you hear about more than motivation or not motivation is just locker room, camaraderie, jealousy. Yeah, uh, we saw the quarterback of Boston College quit nine games into the season because he lost his starting job. Uh the UNLV quarterback who says he was promised something he wasn't, he he left four games into the season. Like it's just it's much more of a business uh environment now. And that's not um across the board. If you saw the interview over the weekend of Cal's quarterback breaking down in tears after leading his team to a comeback over Stanford, that's more what you think of as like the traditional uh college experience. And I do think that's still what most of these guys are playing for. Not everybody is gonna play in the NFL, but it's just definitely become more complicated. Like um you're constantly having to, you know, what you hear coaches say is they're constantly having to re-recruit their roster. Guy can have a couple guy who's not making any L money has a couple big games, and he's going to the coach saying, I want a new NIL deal, or I'm gonna transfer after the season. So it's a huge challenge they're dealing with.

SPEAKER_07 35:45

Are there some coaches that who who maybe were were in good shape before all this started or who maybe signed up for the the old system as far as this is what you have to do as a coach, and now there's all these other things that are going into it, and and maybe they're not as well equipped?

SPEAKER_05 35:58

We did a story going into last season, so going into the 23 season on Maryland and why Maryland's never really been able to, you know, wake up. And um, my colleague uh interviewed Mike Loxley for that. He was a very candid interview where he said, you know, he's known he was always known as this great recruiter, right? Maryland hired him because he's gonna keep all the kids in DC, and that hasn't really happened. And he's like, Well, you know, I'm a relationship guy. Like, my whole thing was I build relationships and now it's transactional. Yeah, it's like I feel like my best asset as a recruiter has been minimized. He said something like, They also had just built this brand new uh football facility that they thought was gonna be a big you know attraction for recruits. And he's like, these kids would get in a it would get dressed in a trash can for $25,000, right? Like that's not a big selling point anymore.

SPEAKER_08 36:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:46

Um, and that's gonna be that's an adjustment. Um coaches, I don't think it's black and white. Um I mean, relationships definitely matter still, um, but but it's the everybody has a baseline expectation that they're gonna make money. So yeah, um, that definitely has changed. I mean, I think the head coaching job, especially at a major program, is just a completely different job than it was five years ago.

SPEAKER_07 37:07

Yeah. You you you said a key word transactional, and and and you know, the old college football sold the idea, whether it was true or not, that that there's this connection between the players going to the school, the fan bases, uh, and that it wasn't a transactional situation, even if there was some transactions going on. Uh long term, can the sport, even if the sport is like creating a lot of heat from from things like you know big matchups and and playoffs and all the things that they're doing now, kind of like almost like a corporatization of of the sport, that connection that that fans have with the fan with the teams and the programs and maybe have do fans realize that some of these players are are coming to to their school for like a semester and will never set foot on their campus again in some cases? It is is that sustainable over the long term?

SPEAKER_05 38:05

I think college football is becoming the living embodiment of the old Jerry Seinfeld joke about sports teams that you're rooting for laundry. You know, like his bit was you know, he's a huge baseball fan, huge Mets fan. And one day you're rooting for this guy, and then he gets traded, and now he comes back to town, you're booing him, and all he did was change uniforms. So I I think I worry about that more for college basketball. I mean, I think you've seen an erosion of interest in college basketball because I mean, I turn on that champions classic to find out who's playing for Duke this year. It's just it's a completely different team every single year. And you know, that's a sport where you get to know the players really well.

SPEAKER_08 38:41

For sure.

SPEAKER_05 38:42

Football, let's be honest, it's like 85 guys, and the average person, like not everybody's on message boards dissecting recruiting classes.

SPEAKER_08 38:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:50

I think on a bright sunny day in Auburn, Alabama, there's 90,000 people in that stadium, and 80,000 of them couldn't name more than the quarterback and a couple other players.

SPEAKER_08 38:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:00

So that loyalty in college sports, more so than pro sports, is to the schools.

SPEAKER_08 39:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:05

It's to the jersey, it's to the, you know, singing the fight song. Right. And so I think that's why people who are saying oh, the transfer portal is gonna, you know, ruin the sport. We're seeing no indication that's the case. None. If anything's gonna ruin the sport, it's realignment.

unknown 39:19

Right.

SPEAKER_05 39:20

Saying, hey, you know, you guys, Oregon fans, you've been used to playing, you know, all these West Coast schools your whole life. Now you gotta play Purdue in Illinois, and just assuming they'll be okay with that. That's a much bigger problem to me than the players changing schools as quickly.

SPEAKER_07 39:35

Stu Mandel, thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy podcast. For those of you out there, check out the athletic, great coverage of college football and a bunch of other sports. And Stu's the best there is. Stu, thanks again. Thanks, Chris. Misty Copeland is an American ballet dancer for the American Ballet Theater. It's one of the three leading classical ballet companies in the United States. On June 30th, 2015, Copeland became the first African-American woman to be promoted to a principal dancer in ABT's 75-year history. She was considered a prodigy, rose to stardom despite not having started ballet until the age of 13. Really, if you live in New York City and you happen to be walking around the Upper West Side near Lincoln Center, it's almost impossible to miss her. She is arguably the most famous ballerina in the world and author of a best-selling book. She's done TV shows and endorsements, and her Misty Copeland Foundation is the reason why she's the 2024 Heisman Humanitarian. This is an award the Heisman Trophy Trust hands out every year, and it goes to figures in sports or athletics who are dedicated to helping underserved communities across the country. So here's my interview with Misty Copeland. We're very excited to have on the official Heisman Trophy podcast, the 2024 Heisman Humanitarian. Misty Copeland, hey, thanks for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_04 41:09

Oh, it's such an honor to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_07 41:13

Congratulations on this latest honor for your great work with your foundation. Uh, what does it mean to be connected with the Heisman Trophy?

SPEAKER_04 41:22

It's really like I never imagined, I never imagined this moment. Um, you know, I grew up in such a sports-heavy household. The fact that I'm even a ballerina is is kind of like, what? You know, I don't think my family ever anticipated this. Um, you know, my mother, uh my father played basketball, my mother was a professional cheerleader for the Kansas City Chiefs football team. So I grew up like in it. So the Heisman, like that is like, you know, the ultimate. So to think, you know, now um to be honored as a ballerina, as an athlete as well, but also for the, you know, philanthropic work that I'm doing using what I've gained by being an athlete and by being an artist and the opportunities and access I was given. And I wanted to replicate that and give others that same experience. And that's the work that we're doing through the Misty Copling Foundation.

SPEAKER_07 42:16

Yeah, and for my part, it's so exciting to talk to someone who is really in the pure distillation of what is athletic ballet is just pure athleticism. And, you know, I wanted to ask you, how how did you discover uh this discipline?

SPEAKER_04 42:28

Yeah. Well, it's very nice to hear you say that because, you know, throughout my career, and I think things have changed, you know, over the last decade maybe, but throughout my career, it's been um, you know, it's hard to be given the same uh to be recognized as an athlete and be given kind of the same due, you know, respect uh that professional athletes get. Um and it is, it's you know, it's it's extremely grueling and physical, just like any sport. I would say even more so, you know, there's no time taken off. We don't at all get paid what professional athletes get paid. Um, and then there's the artistry on top of it, you know. I think what why people have that um idea of what a ballerine is or a dancer is, is because we're meant to make it look effortless. And and um that's the artistry on top. So um, you know, coming from this athletic world, you know, around my family, and then um entering into ballet was not at all something I had planned on doing. I was introduced to ballet at my boys and girls club, uh the community center in the town I grew up in in San Pedro, California. And there was a local ballet teacher that was looking for diverse students to bring into her school and scholarship. And I happened to be one of those students. And I was on a basketball court in my gym clothes, and that's where I took my first ballet class. And uh she she said from the moment she placed her hand on my toes, she knew I was a prodigy and that I had a bright future. And um I ended up training for four years. Years living with her for three of those years with her and her family. And within four years, I was in New York City dancing professionally at the age of 17.

SPEAKER_07 44:12

That's an amazing story. And for those of you out there who aren't familiar with ballet, I think all you need to know is that some of the great football players have studied ballet. Lynn Swan, the most famously, was a ballet dancer. And you could see that translate over with the precision and the balance and the athletic, you know, the pure explosion athleticism. Once you became a ballet dancer, what was your path to the American ballet theater?

SPEAKER_04 44:39

So I started my training, and within, I guess, maybe the a year and a half was when I auditioned for my first competition. It's a big arts competition in Southern California. It's called the Los Angeles Music Center Spotlight Awards. And I ended up winning that competition with only a year and a half of training. I was 15, I think, 15 years old. And that that was the first time that the professional ballet world saw me. The judges that were on the panel were from San Francisco Ballet and the Joffrey Ballet and American Ballet Theater. And I was offered scholarships to train with this with all of those schools. And I ended up going to San Francisco Ballet for this for my first summer away. The following year, I went to American Ballet Theater where I was offered a contract at 16 and ended up turning it down. My mother thought I was way too young and had very little experience. And the following year I then joined the company. So you know, it's very rare to join a professional company in ballet with so little training. Typically you would train for maybe 10 to 15 years before you uh go on to become a professional. So I had I had a lot of learning to do, though I got to, you know, this incredible uh company, but um I still was not where I felt I should be.

SPEAKER_07 46:06

Right. Well, as the first African-American female principal dancer at the uh ABT, what did that mean to you, that that milestone? And how how do you see it potentially impacting uh future generations of ballet dancers?

SPEAKER_04 46:19

Yeah, you know, I've been the only in most environments that I'm in. Uh coming into a professional atmosphere, I still, you know, being so new to the field, I still wasn't really aware of how big this gap was in the lack of diversity when I came to ABT. I was the only black woman in the company for the first decade of my career. Uh, and it was really difficult. You know, I experienced a lot of adversity and racism, and um, you know, it wasn't it took me 15 years to be promoted, which is also a very long time. Uh, I was 32 years old, and as an athlete, that's very old, especially for a woman. Um, and being being black, uh, you know, it added even more responsibility. And so if anything, it fueled me more. Um, I love a challenge. I think most athletes do, that that kind of fires us up. You know, how can I overcome? How can I rise to the occasion? And um, you know, it's been so important for me to have mentors in my life that have been there to support me because I know that what I've done on the stage and what I'm doing off the stage is so much bigger than me. And in the end, to me, it's not even about ballet. It's how do I use this tool, this vehicle of ballet, um to give people hope, to give them an escape, to give them an understanding of what it is to be a part of something bigger than yourself, a community. Um, and that's what the importance of arts and arts education is. And that's why I've, you know, started the foundation.

SPEAKER_07 48:01

I read somewhere that you first got interested in ballet after watching the movie about Nadia Kamanich, or you got interested in gymnastics. I remember that movie. Uh, it was really as a kid uh watching that as well. Um, and you know, gymnastics is kind of adjacent athletically to ballet with the uh kind of the uh Simone Biles' breakthrough uh in that sport, has that sort of helped a little bit with ballet as well? Uh to become more diverse? Has that been an aid in that in that process?

SPEAKER_04 48:34

Yeah, it's that's really interesting. You know, no one's really ever asked me in that way, you know, if if I've if I've seen any impact coming from um from that side of you know of athletics uh impacting us in any way. I would say no. I would say if anything, you know, once once uh once those little black and brown girls or boys are already in the ballet studio, then it's amazing to see that you know there are there's representation in all these different spaces, but it's about getting them into the space. And I wouldn't say that Simone Biles definitely necessarily gets gets a young brown girl into the ballet studio, but to have that inspiration once they're in there is incredible. And it's definitely like making a difference. But you know, the real work for me is done at the top and at the bottom. You know, it's it's the board of directors and these institutions, it's it's bringing more diversity there so that there's an understanding of um how to create a company that's representative of everyone. And then on, you know, kind of the bottom floor, it's how do we get access and opportunity to more children in under-resourced and underrepresented communities? Um, and that's how I was discovered. And so I feel like this is my purpose. This is what I'm supposed to be doing.

SPEAKER_07 49:55

And that's the the purpose of your foundation, the Misty Copeland Foundation at Misty Copeland Foundation.org. Was there something specific that inspired you to start that foundation or gave you an idea that that you could make a big difference?

SPEAKER_04 50:08

I always knew that I would do something in giving back. I mean, I have throughout my career, I've had a long-standing relationship with the with the boys and girls clubs of America because you know, that's where I got my start. I've been an ambassador for them. Um and with starting the foundation, um I guess what sparked, sparked it was um the pandemic and recognizing the importance of the arts and the absolute need for it, especially in that time. Um, the need for young people to move their bodies and connect with people again. Uh, and so it was during the pandemic. It's been three years now that the foundation has been up and running, two years since we started our signature program, Be Bold. Um, and it really uh kind of mimics the way I started. You know, it's it's we're going into community centers, we're we're we're we're meeting these children where they are, we're not taking them out of their communities and bringing them into places where they're they don't see themselves represented, um, they don't feel comfortable. Not that that's everyone's experience, but we really want them to feel that this is for them. You know, we've created our own curriculum. It's a free after-school ballet class, there's live musicians, it's it's made for students to exist in these communities.

unknown 51:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 51:29

And and that's specifically the is that the Be-Bold program that you're just describing right now at the end?

SPEAKER_04 51:34

That's the Be Bold program. And and Beebold stands for Ballet Explorations, Ballet Offers Leadership Development. Um, and so, you know, as I said before, it's bigger than ballet. Ballet is a vehicle to uh, you know, an entry point to get these young people to be exposed to a discipline, to an art form, to become future leaders. And, you know, I'm so proud that in just two years we're already reaching, you know, 400 young people in 14 community sites in in the Bronx and in Harlem here in New York.

SPEAKER_07 52:11

So it's primarily in in the tri-state area there or the New York area?

SPEAKER_04 52:15

Yes, for now. We want to start, you know, small and smart and steady and eventually take over the world one plie at a time.

SPEAKER_07 52:26

That's great. Can you share some of the more impactful success stories or milestones that you've achieved so far through your foundation?

SPEAKER_04 52:33

Yeah. I mean, to be able to be reaching this many, many um children um with and only two years in, you know, has been um such a feat and so proud of that. You know, just to be able to have the flexibility, and it was very intentional uh with the foundation to have the flexibility and a team that was able to really make changes in real time with what we're seeing with the students in front of us. So even if you go from one community site to the next, the class might not look exactly the same because you're dealing with different students in different communities with different issues or different talents or whatever it may be. And that's something that I'm so proud of. Um we have one incredible teacher, Joe Hari, who's who had a student who was experiencing some literacy uh issues, and to be able to say, what can we do? How can we use this tool of dance to bring in literacy into what we're doing and to see the impact of a lot of these children at home, to see the way that they, the way that they carry themselves and a difference in the way that they're speaking and and reading and writing in school has been, you know, really exciting. Like this is the purpose. It's not to create necessarily create pr professional dancers, it's to create better human beings in our society.

SPEAKER_07 54:03

Well, there's so many great downstream benefits of of doing something like ballet. The discipline required, the hard work required, the physical uh outcomes, uh, your body getting stronger. And that's gotta have great benefits as you get older in life, too, maybe uh stronger knees or something, you know, something along those lines. Well, uh what upcome? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What upcoming initiatives or projects are you planning? And how do you envision these efforts contributing uh to the broader community and to the world of that way?

SPEAKER_04 54:34

Um, well, you kind of hinted to it with what you were saying, with just like the benefits that even when you're getting older that it can have on your body and strength and alignment. And um, the the next initiative that we're we're working on right now is actually dealing with um, or not dealing with, serving um the uh the elder uh population. So we're in the process of developing a new program that will serve uh our seniors that's really, really exciting. And we're you know, we're really trying to access those same communities that we already have our BeatBold program in. Um and you know, what's been important for me is that it's not just about these programs within the community sites, but how can we uh really be a part of the community? How are we reaching their guardians and their parents and really getting them to understand the importance of this work? Um so in the end, I feel like the work that we're doing, I'm hoping will then infiltrate these big institutions. You know, I've been a part of a big institution for 25 years, American Ballet Theater and just the ballet world at large. And um it's really hard sometimes, even though you know I've been on stage and had an impact in that space. And it's like then, you know, I step away and it's and look at it and it's like, has there really been that much change? So what change can I make off the stage? And I feel like, you know, it's it's um getting people to recognize and see the work that we're doing and want to implement that on their schools and on their students. We've already seen that happening two years in. Um, so much interest in the work that we're doing behind the walls of these community centers and really understanding it because they're seeing uh the changes in these young people.

SPEAKER_07 56:27

Well, it all sounds very exciting. You're dealing working with the youth, working with older people. If you ever get around to the middle-aged folks, let me know. I'm I'll be happy to learn some ballet. Maybe that'll help me as well. So, Misty Copeland, thanks for coming on the official Heisman Trophy podcast. Congratulations again on everything. Uh, it's really an honor to talk with you, an honor for the Heisman to be associated with you. And uh, we look forward to seeing you in New York City when uh when you get your award.

SPEAKER_04 56:54

Thank you so much. It's an honor for me.

SPEAKER_07 56:57

Well, that'll do it for this week's show. Next week, 1999 Heisman Trophy winner Ron Dane, celebrating the 25th anniversary of his Heisman Trophy Award-winning season. See you then. The official Heisman Trophy podcast streams every Wednesday during the college football season and is hosted, co-produced, edited, and engineered by Chris Houston. Paul Goldberg is the executive producer and editor. Special shout out to Isaac Mohenkram, and big thanks to the Heisman Trophy Trust and its executive director, Rob Whalen, and Associate Director Tim Henning. The official Heisman Trophy podcast can be found on Spotify, Apple Music, and anywhere you listen to your favorite podcast. You can also find clips of our show on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube. Just go to Heisman Trophy.