SPEAKER_07: 0:00

It's definitely surreal. I mean, it's still pretty nuts to me. When I run out there and think 16 days against Illinois State, I'll still be a little, not freaked out, but I'll be a little excited. You know, it's a dream come true. And this town makes it, you can't really avoid it. And you hear it all the time. I mean, this is Oklahoma. And I knew it growing up. Oklahoma is the Mecca. And And now I'm here, it's pretty crazy to me. Welcome to the

SPEAKER_05: 0:30

official Heisman Trophy podcast.

SPEAKER_02: 0:34

Chuck Conrad with a kickoff. Roy has a strong leg, end over end. Sanders takes it one yard deep to the end zone. Up the middle of five, 10, 15, 20.

SPEAKER_05: 0:59

Here's your host, Chris Houston. Hello, everybody. I'm back. College football season kicks off this week. We are in week zero officially. Thank you so much to all you out there who subscribe and follow the show. Once again, it's been a crazy offseason in college football, but the Heisman is back to bring some normalcy to the situation. What's normal anymore? Who's really to say? We have Iowa State and Kansas State in Dublin to kick off the season. And here on the Heisman Trophy podcast, we're kicking things off with Oklahoma quarterback John Mateer. He merely had 44 touchdowns combined, rushing and passing last year for Washington State, and now he is in Norman, and hope is springing eternal once again. for the Sooners. Our partners ESPN recently listed the top 10 Heisman candidates coming into the season, and two of them are starting out with the Heisman podcast in the first two weeks. You already know about Mateer coming up a little bit later, but then next week we will have Jeremiah Smith, wide receiver extraordinaire out of The Ohio State University. Also coming up on the show, ACC analyst and former college football quarterback Max Brown is going to break down everything about John Mateer and let us know what kind of player he is. And then after that, we will have David Cavucci of FOIAball.com. That's FOIAball.com. It's an ingenious new website that uses the Freedom of Information Act to bring transparency to college football. I like it. And then we'll close the show with one of our Heisman trustees, Jim Corcoran, and he's going to let us take a peek inside the temple to find out what the Heisman is up to these days. But first, let's do a little bit of Heisman news. Auburn University will honor Cam Newton for the Tigers game against Georgia on October 11th by retiring his number two jersey. In addition, Auburn will celebrate the 40th anniversary of Bo Jackson's 1985 Heisman Triumph. Fittingly enough, that will take place at the Iron Bowl on November 29th. And congratulations to three Heisman Trophy winners, Robert Griffin III, Baylor, Mark Ingram of Alabama, and the aforementioned Newton of Auburn. All three were named the National Football Foundation's 2026 ballot under consideration for induction into the College Football Hall of Fame. Congrats, gents. Good luck. And also, the Heisman Trophy will be in Columbus, Ohio next week. You may have heard there's a huge game happening between Texas and Ohio State. And because it's such a big game, the statue is going to take the trip. Now, if you happen to be in Columbus on that Saturday, there's a pretty decent chance that you can get a picture with the Heisman Trophy. You might even see two-time Heisman Trophy winner Archie Griffin, who will be honored for the 50th anniversary of his second Heisman win. Check back to this space next week. I'll have more details then. And before we get to our first guest, I just want to tell a little story. It might sound familiar. Imagine a player who goes to high school in Texas, has a great career as a quarterback, shows a lot of promise, plays at the highest levels of Texas high school football. But for some reason or another, he doesn't get scouted properly. I mean, there's a lot of players in Texas, so you can't always find every one. So with very little interest coming from Power 5 conferences, he takes the first offer he can get from Washington State. He has a breakout season for the Cougars, such a breakout, that he's courted by all the college football powers who overlooked him earlier in his career. He picks a traditional power to play quarterback at, and he leads them to a great season, and he becomes a Heisman finalist. Of course, I'm talking about Cam Ward, who made the trip from Texas to Washington down to Miami on his way to becoming a Heisman Trophy finalist last year. And then he becomes the first pick in the NFL draft. But with the exception of the part about the Heisman finalist and the draft status, because it's too early to tell, so far this story pretty much tracks beat for beat with the story of John Mateer. We brought him on the show last year when he was with the Cougars, and he was just beginning to blossom as a quarterback. And we do take pride in identifying talent as early as possible on this show. We talked to Cam Ward at Washington State just before he broke out. Now, humans are naturally pattern recognizers, but I recognize a pattern here. So expect good things in the future for young Mr. Mateer, who, by the way, is now a two-time guest on the Heisman Trophy podcast. Rare air indeed. We talked to John last week as his team was preparing for Illinois State on August 30th. And here's what he had to say. John Mateer, quarterback, Oklahoma Sooners. Welcome back to the Heisman Trophy podcast.

SPEAKER_07: 5:36

Thank you. Thank you. Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_05: 5:39

You made the move from the Palouse to the Plains. How are you enjoying life in Norman, Oklahoma these days?

SPEAKER_07: 5:44

It's been great. I mean, the whole move was a smooth transition coming back down to the south and same offensive coordinator and quarterback coach and one of our receiver coaches. It's been great. It's really a family here and all these people brought me in and embraced me. It's been a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_05: 6:00

I know it's camp time and things are crazy, but in August, 2020, 25, what's the single biggest thing in your mind when you wake up?

SPEAKER_07: 6:10

Hmm. I would say just me and myself and competing every day. I think it's important. I'm in a new situation, but I don't need to try to do anything. That's not me. That's not me. who I am, you know, and the people here have told me that and really embraced me for who I am. And then competing, everything is about competing and getting to the highest level we can be.

SPEAKER_05: 6:32

Yeah. You were perhaps the most prominent quarterback transfer in all of college football this past off season. And now a lot of people are touting you as Oklahoma's next great quarterback. Does that feel like a target on your back or is it fuel in your tank?

SPEAKER_07: 6:46

Definitely not a target. It's a huge opportunity. I mean, I grew up watching all the Awesome quarterbacks. I went to this university, and it's an endless list of good quarterbacks, and I'm just honored to be in that position and to try to do my best.

SPEAKER_05: 7:02

You came on this show last October when you were with Washington State, kind of before you really started to blow up nationally. How has your game changed since then? And I'm not talking your playing style necessarily, but the way you think and the way you prepare.

SPEAKER_07: 7:13

Yeah, I mean, the experience is– I mean, nothing can replace it. You need so much experience, and– Getting that and getting those games in, even after our last talk, are huge. And the game slows down for you and going through your progressions and your instincts and knowing protections and getting your checkdowns. I was playing some pretty reckless football there at the beginning, and I was just throwing my body into defenders. And that's one way to play, but it's not the best for your longevity. So getting the checkdowns and trusting my athletes around me.

SPEAKER_05: 7:47

Is that something that Coach Arbuckle is talking to you now about? you know keeping preserving your body choosing your spots

SPEAKER_07: 7:55

yeah no doubt i mean there's definitely still spots you got to do it third down fourth down into the game i mean you let it loose but um the team needs you you know and we got really athletic guys that are built to take those hits

SPEAKER_05: 8:08

you were super productive last year as a first year starter what's one lesson from last season that you took that you'll never forget

SPEAKER_07: 8:13

i struggled there um around the time we had the uh our talk uh i was really worried about all the outside noise and everything i was so young looking back i feel like a whole different person but i was so young you know i cared about what everybody thought and now getting older it's not easy but i i really learned that it's really it's the people closest to you in your circle that's their opinion matters because because you love them and because you built trust with them but not everybody man everybody's gonna have something to say and but you trust the people you trust

SPEAKER_05: 8:46

I'm sure it's never easy to transfer to a new program. Kind of walk me through the process you took to get to know your teammates and the coaches during the offseason.

SPEAKER_07: 8:55

I mean, I got really lucky because it's the same offensive coordinator. Yeah. So... So being able to know the offense but just learn the relationships, just build relationships in the locker room because I didn't have to sit in a meeting room and learn the offense. I could sit in the locker room and learn the players, and that's huge. I mean, there's nothing to replace that and just being around the guys and learning the culture.

SPEAKER_05: 9:19

Yeah. In the classroom, you major in organizational leadership. It seems like a major perfectly suited for the quarterback. Has it helped make you a better leader?

SPEAKER_07: 9:28

Yeah, I just got introduced into that major coming here. It all got kind of messed up in the portal and transferred to a new school, which is how it is. But yeah, I mean, it's pretty fitting. We're pretty organized here, and I'm supposed to be a leader. So yeah, I mean, you take classes about how to lead, and yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 9:47

Great timing. Everyone talks about arm strength, your reads, the footwork, but what's one part of your game that people are overlooking?

SPEAKER_07: 9:56

Those are some big ones. But I'd say just the ability to process and to know what's going on and what's going on up front gets you into the smarter checks and the easy checks. I thought I was pretty good at it, but I'm even better at it now. Keeping the game simple. You don't have to do anything crazy. Just be efficient on all downs.

SPEAKER_05: 10:17

Yeah. Coach Arbuckle said that you have to make this your team. Is it yours yet?

SPEAKER_07: 10:22

I'm not here to say it's my team, this and that. I feel like there might be some ego in that, but I think it's a good team, and I think I have the trust in my teammates to say that they'll follow my lead.

SPEAKER_05: 10:38

Looking at the OU receiving room, who's going to be your Kyle Williams this year, do you think?

SPEAKER_07: 10:43

Kyle is special. and he's doing great things now with the Patriots. There's a lot of guys. I mean, you look across the board, Giovanni, Cantis, Lewis, Deon Berg. You got Isaiah Satani. You got so many guys, and they're all battling with different stuff, and they love football. So I don't know who it's going to be, and it could be anybody across the whole depth chart, and they've been working real hard.

SPEAKER_05: 11:11

You know, there was lots of talk about the transition going over to playing in the SEC, and you guys have a tremendous schedule coming up. Playing against the OU defense every day in practice, has that sort of allowed you to get a taste of that and level up your game a bit?

SPEAKER_07: 11:26

Yeah, I mean, this defense is real, and they're going to throw everything at you. It's hard to scheme against. I mean, the goal isn't to scheme against our defense. You can't. I don't know. They just do so much stuff. It's great. And then the talent on that side of the ball is going to prepare me for what we're going against, and I appreciate them every day because they bring it every day.

SPEAKER_05: 11:48

Yeah. You were in, I think, eighth grade when Baker Mayfield won his Heisman, and you were a freshman already starting at high school at quarterback when Kyler Murray won his. Both Texas– quarterbacks out of high school, both guys who transferred into OU, so you're kind of in that same situation. As a young quarterback in those days, did you look up to those guys and really take note of what they were doing?

SPEAKER_07: 12:10

Yeah, no doubt. I mean, both of them are incredible football players still, and what they did in such a close proximity to me, where I was from, and doing it, I guess how I'm doing it now, is awesome. I mean, the history here, you hear Baker's name every day around this place, and what they did for this program is awesome.

SPEAKER_05: 12:30

You know, you weren't really touted much coming out of high school, which is pretty weird. You know, you played at the highest levels of Texas high school, super productive. And I read that you always kind of thought that you would eventually, you know, the cream would rise to the top. You would eventually be in this situation. And now that you're in this situation, quarterback at OU, does it feel real? Are you amazed that you're actually in this situation that you've been dreaming of and looking forward to all these years?

SPEAKER_07: 12:57

Yeah, it's definitely surreal. I mean, it's still pretty nuts to me. When I run out there and I think 16 days against Illinois State, I'll still be a little, not freaked out, but I'll be a little excited. It's a dream come true and super excited for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_05: 13:14

How much do you love college football? Having this experience at a traditional power, are you starting to feel that sensation of just the history and all the things that make college special?

SPEAKER_07: 13:25

Yeah, I mean, this town makes it– you can't really avoid it. And you hear it all the time. I mean, this is Oklahoma, and I knew it growing up. Oklahoma is the Mecca, and now I'm here. It's pretty crazy to me. But, yeah, I mean, I know the history and the culture of what this place is.

SPEAKER_05: 13:44

If someone only watched one drive from you this season, what do you want them to see?

SPEAKER_07: 13:47

Toughness, intelligence, and just– quickness i'd say those are the big big three things that'll make make this team get it done

SPEAKER_05: 13:59

when did you first hear your name in a heisman conversation and what was your gut reaction when you heard that

SPEAKER_07: 14:04

i i saw it on instagram it was posted and i was like whoa like this is nuts kind of that was back when i really cared about that you know i still do it's a big thing but that was the focus and it's not it's not the focus anymore i'll be honest but It shouldn't be, but it's great. I mean, this is the award.

SPEAKER_05: 14:23

Yeah. Well, luckily, you win a bunch of games, have a great year. All that stuff kind of comes naturally. So I'm going to do a quick five-question lightning round to end the segment. Name a teammate that you have great chemistry with right now.

SPEAKER_07: 14:37

Giovanni Gibson.

SPEAKER_05: 14:38

What's the favorite game you've ever played in?

SPEAKER_07: 14:40

The Apple

SPEAKER_05: 14:40

Cup. That was a great game. Toughest moment that you've had to push through? Losing to Boise. What's one stadium that you dreamed of playing in? Oklahoma. All right. Well, John Mateer, we really appreciate you coming on the Heisman Trophy podcast. We wish you the best of luck this season. You got Illinois State coming at the end of the month, like you mentioned. And we wish you and your team the best of luck. And maybe we'll see you down the road.

SPEAKER_07: 15:05

Yes, sir. Thank you so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05: 15:13

Hope you enjoyed the interview. Just a reminder that every Saturday makes legends, but every December only one becomes immortal. So stay ahead of the story. Subscribe now to the Heisman Trophy podcast because history doesn't wait and neither should you. The Heisman is handed out every December, but the history of the trophy lives year round at Heisman.com. Home to the most iconic trophy in sports, Heisman.com tells the stories of all 88 of our winners and features news, bios, and statistics on all your favorite Heisman heroes. Heisman.com also highlights our Heisman humanitarians, the many charities supported by the Heisman Trust, and so much more. Make Heisman.com your first stop for all things Heisman. Joining us now on the Heisman Trophy podcast is Max Brown, formerly of USC and the University of Pittsburgh. Welcome, Max.

SPEAKER_08: 16:18

What's up, Chris? Thanks for having me

SPEAKER_05: 16:20

on. Yeah, we just talked to John Mateer, and I thought it'd be great to get a former quarterback on the show to talk about what's so special about his game. So thanks for coming on.

SPEAKER_08: 16:31

For sure. Yeah, you want me to jump right into it?

SPEAKER_05: 16:35

Yeah, I just say, you know, let's right off the bat, from what you've seen, what's your overall assessment of his game right now?

SPEAKER_08: 16:42

Yeah, my first true time seeing him was the Apple Cup of last year, his matchup versus Washington. And, you know, from afar, I had called and covered a bunch of Washington State games during my time with the Pac-12 networks. And I didn't really know who this guy was. It was always like, you know, Cam Ward was, for obvious reasons, he was the splashy guy. And it was like, oh, man, the Cougs are going to be in real trouble with Cam Ward moving away. And then with every month in the offseason, it was like, nah, I think we're going to be fine with this Mateer guy. And then when he turned on that film, the matchup last year versus Washington, which that was one of the more high-profile matchups, given that, you know, Washington State's not in an elite conference anymore. But he is clearly the best player on the field. And I think what– What people may underestimate about his ability is you see the highlight reels with his legs, but I think he can totally beat you in win games from the pocket, which that's obviously what you want from a dual threat quarterback. But there's a lot of college quarterbacks that I think for them to play at their highest level, their legs have to be a critical factor in a game. I don't think that's the case with John Mateer. I think John Mateer could run for 10 yards in a game and still play lights out because he has the ability to beat you from the pocket.

UNKNOWN: 17:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 17:52

Yeah, totally. He had a really nice run in that game where he showed a nice cutback ability. I think he might have had a couple big runs and a couple just big-time throws. How would you describe his style of play compared to other college quarterbacks that you've covered or played with?

SPEAKER_08: 18:08

Yeah, it's funny. The two guys that stick out are– I mean, these weren't guys that I played with, but Baker Mayfield, one, and Johnny Manziel, another. I think he is– faster than Baker Mayfield and probably more along in terms of like actual speed and elusiveness, more of the Johnny Manziel side. But he seems sturdy. He seems like he could hang in the pocket. And that was a little bit of Baker Mayfield's magic is, you know, hanging in there, taking the hits, being gritty and sturdy in the pocket, which isn't always the sexiest thing to say, but I think that is, is a value. And, Obviously, it's of note saying Baker Mayfield to a guy that's now also wearing the Oklahoma jersey. And I've seen a couple articles of John being like, you know what, I don't want any part of that. But I do think there is overlap in some of that skill set. And Baker was obviously very good from the pocket. If John could be even remotely close to that, I think Oklahoma could have a really good year.

SPEAKER_05: 19:08

Yeah, there was an element of the Sandlot football a little bit to his game last year. A lot of times you'd see him, he'll roll left and then instead of setting his feet, he might throw it awkwardly. What stands out about you, about his throwing mechanics, his release, his footwork, his pocket movement, all that kind of stuff?

SPEAKER_08: 19:27

I view it as a positive. Yeah, I don't view that as a negative. To me, there's two separate things. There's the arm slot, and then there's the footwork, which I've seen criticism on both sides. I've seen the criticism that, hey, his footwork looks a little sporadic and chaotic at times. I was the guy that grew up watching Peyton Manning, and his feet was noteworthy for how chaotic and scrambly they were. But I think that was more him just staying active and whatnot, and it wasn't necessarily a panic level there. That's how I view Martyr's footwork. The arm slots... I view that as a positive just in today's game with, you know, the RPO world run pass option being so significant in college football, the ability to throw out a different arm slots. To me, that's a positive. And I think at the end of the day, when he does have a clean pocket and it's third and six and he's dropping back, he can totally throw the ball with strong mechanics. So the fact that he can do both, I view as a positive.

SPEAKER_05: 20:27

Yeah, all that artistry aside, are there any mechanical tweaks you think could maybe help him improve his accuracy a bit or maybe his consistency?

SPEAKER_08: 20:36

I guess to me it's just that next-level notch command of the passing game because when your mechanics are in sync with what your eyes are seeing down the field, that's obviously the rhythm you want to be in. Where guys get in trouble, where I think a John might get in trouble as if hey, there's indecision in what I'm seeing in the pass concept down the field, especially as he's moving to the SEC. Does that then lead to bad footwork because his eyes aren't where they need to be? So to me, it's more of a, hey, make sure his brain and his eyes are locked in, especially with obviously seeing much better defenses, and then that'll lead to good mechanics and footwork.

SPEAKER_05: 21:16

Looking at decision-making in field division today, From what you can tell looking at his tape, how well does he process defenses pre and post snap?

SPEAKER_08: 21:26

I think it's strong. I don't see a guy that is relying every single time to see a receiver open. I mean, I go back to that Washington game again that was early on in last season. There's a lot of throws in there where he's on the far right hash throwing to the left sideline. And the only way you're doing that is if you're anticipating the throw. So I think that's a strong skill set of his. I certainly wouldn't say that's a weakness. which sometimes that is, right? If you're a dual threat quarterback, you have the luxury of a lot of teams lining up in man against you, which then makes the picture very clean when you're reading defenses. So you have the luxury of seeing guys open and seeing your receivers get separation. I don't think that's necessarily the case for John. For all these quarterbacks that are Transfer guys or at new schools, that's always the decision or always the talking point of, like, can they level up their command across the board with the offensive scheme? In year two with Ben Arbuckle, I'd expect that to be the case, but I certainly don't think that's a weakness of Mateer's game.

SPEAKER_05: 22:26

Yeah, just kind of stepping aside and talking about the transfer aspect really quick. You were a transfer. You went from USC to Pitt. He's had to come in. Obviously, I think you had to sit out a year, right, before? Yeah.

SPEAKER_08: 22:38

No, I graduated. So I did the grad transfer right in there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 22:41

Right. So, you know, there's a process of coming to a new place and getting to know people. Is there like a tried and true approach to finding a way to feel comfortable in a new situation like that, especially in this short period of time? He's only had eight months so far. You had to go through it. What was kind of the approach you took? And, you know, what is he going through right now in that kind of situation?

SPEAKER_08: 23:07

My approach was, hey, every locker room speaks hard work. And what I mean by that is if you show up and take care of your business, everyone's going to respect that, whether you're at a Division II school, whether you're at Pitt, whether you're at USC, Washington State, wherever. What I can't relate to for John is in my brain, I was going down a notch from USC to Pitt, from a Blue Blood program to a program that's still– expects to be in the top 25 every year, but from my vantage point, it wasn't the pressure and intensity of what it was at USC. Obviously, John going from Washington State to Oklahoma for a staff that's likely coaching for their jobs this year, it's a different level of expectations. Then I also can't relate to the fact that he's coming with his offensive coordinator, which is a huge factor in terms of not having to learn a new offense and all that. For me, the hardest part of transferring to Pitt was having to learn another new offense as a older upperclassman, which at that point you're hopeful, like, I'm past those days, right? That's what my freshman and sophomore year were for. That was not my case at Pitt, which I think will help John out at Oklahoma.

SPEAKER_05: 24:13

That's a really unique situation for him. That's one of the reasons why him going over there is so intriguing. Going back to his physical talent, his arm talent, his ball placement, how would you grade his arm strength and his ability to make throws at all the levels?

SPEAKER_08: 24:27

I'd say B+. I mean, I don't turn on the film and say, oh, wow, this is a guy that can't make the throws. But I also don't turn on the film and say, wow, this guy has a rocket arm. The line that I've been using all offseason, though, is from a film evaluation standpoint, John Mateer's 2024 film was better than Cam Ward's 2023 film. Take that however you will, whether that means Cam was the best quarterback ever. in college football last year. Like, that's doing something right. Obviously, he was the number one pick in the draft. I think Cam has maybe a little bit more ceiling to tap into than John does at current date, like in their respective preseason college football years. But, I mean, Mateer's film's legit.

SPEAKER_05: 25:10

Yeah. You know, it's funny. They say history repeats itself or sometimes it rhymes. And you look at Cam Ward starting out where he did in Texas and not being recruited, going to Washington State, leveling up to Miami, first pick in the draft. You got John Mateer, same situation, going to Washington State, leveling up to Oklahoma. What do you see him as far as like his ceiling? Can he be someone who is eventually a high draft pick if his production shows up this year in Oklahoma?

SPEAKER_08: 25:41

In terms of ceiling, in terms of best-case scenario, without a doubt. I mean, if we're seeing it out of guys, I mean, I know Johnny Manziel's career didn't work out, but he was a first-round draft pick. I mean, Baker's obviously had, after some twists and turns, a successful career. Like, best-case scenario, ceiling, I do think that John has that capability. He needs to take a big step to get there, don't get me wrong, and obviously, you know, back up the expectations and show that his game can translate to a higher level of college football, but... Ceiling, best case scenario, totally. Even more so, that's easy to say, but for example, Fernando Mendoza is another top transfer quarterback that went to Indiana. A lot of people have him as a first-round guy. I don't think his ceiling's there. So that's not just the easy answer. Could he be an NFL guy? For sure. But first-round guy, I'm not there with a guy like Fernando Mendoza. I'm not necessarily there with... I mean, some of the other... Darian Mensah or guys like that. Mateer, I think, and the reason is, I think Mateer can win from the pocket first and the legs are a supplemental bonus versus my sense is the average college football fan kind of feels like Mateer was just running around up in Pullman and being a better athlete than everyone. I think there's a lot more to his game than that.

SPEAKER_05: 27:02

Yeah, it seems like it. And one of the things I think those critics don't really talk about is, yeah, he was at Washington State and didn't necessarily have the high-level competition that he's going to have. On the other hand, he's got people around him perhaps who are maybe more talented, more depth than he probably had at Washington State, although Washington State had an excellent receiving core.

SPEAKER_08: 27:22

I agree with that. I've been a big fan. I called Jay Knott's first-ever college football game, and that guy is special. And he was hurt last year, so I think– I mean, Oklahoma fans know him. I mean, as a top running back transfer– But that dude is special. If they can keep him healthy and that's a combo in the backfield, that could be a huge value add to support John Mateer with a run game there.

SPEAKER_05: 27:46

What part of his game do you think is going to translate best to making this move? He's going to have to adjust some things for sure, but what's going to just naturally be there and really make the biggest impact right away?

SPEAKER_08: 27:57

I think the improvisation, those skills will translate. I mean, when things break down and he makes a defensive end miss and there's a second play and he scrambles for a first down or finds a receiver leaking out to the edge, that stuff translates. And I think if you're a defensive coordinator, you're going to have to account for his legs as part of your game plan. That's going to translate. To me... Is he going to be able to switch directions and run all over the park and get hit a bunch in the SEC like maybe he did at Washington State? That probably has to get toned down. I'm intrigued to see how all the praise that I've been giving him from a pocket passing standpoint. I think a lot of it will translate, but that's also another big question. But the skills of him making defensive ends miss, getting to that second play, I think translates to the SEC.

SPEAKER_05: 28:46

Well, Max Brown, one of the finest up-and-coming analysts in the game. We're going to bring you on by your leave whenever we have a quarterback on just to have you break him down. Is that okay?

SPEAKER_08: 28:56

That'd be a blast. Looking forward. I think it's an interesting year where a lot of quarterback battles, a lot of starters that are brand new to their teams that I feel confident in November we'll be talking about guys that in the Heisman conversation that we're not necessarily talking about right now.

SPEAKER_05: 29:11

So where are some of the places that the people out there can find you and read you and look at your stuff?

SPEAKER_08: 29:15

Yeah, I've really leveled up the YouTube game this past off season. So they're just under Max Brown, posting videos every single week. Active on TikTok and Instagram as well, Max Brown. And X as well, Max Brown 4.

SPEAKER_05: 29:28

Everyone get out there and look at what Max has to say. Great stuff. Very informative. Well, thanks for coming on the show and we'll see you down the road.

SPEAKER_08: 29:34

Thanks, Chris.

SPEAKER_05: 29:37

Did you know that the Heisman Trophy Trust has donated more than$20 million to a huge variety of charity-based groups via its Heisman Trophy Fund for Youth Development? That's right. The fund has helped countless charitable organizations that uses sports to engage underprivileged young people in educational activities. If you are part of an organization or know of one that would like to apply for funding, visit Heisman.com and click on the charities link at the top of the site.

SPEAKER_01: 30:01

Hey guys, this is Barry Sanders, the 1988 Heisman Trophy winner, and you are listening to the official Heisman Trophy podcast.

SPEAKER_05: 30:22

So we're all familiar with the massive changes going on in college football right now. One of the interesting things to me is that the college football media landscape has been changing at the same time. And some of the larger entities that used to cover the sport don't really dedicate as much resources as they used to to hard reporting or the expertise to investigate just isn't there anymore. That's why I was fascinated to learn about a new website, foiaball.com, that's F-O-I-A ball.com, which utilizes the Freedom of Information Act to retrieve public records from universities. The creator of that site is David Cavucci, and he joins us now. David Cavucci of Foyaball, welcome to the show. Hello, thank you for having me. So FOIAball.beehive.com is a new website out there. Tell me, what sparked the idea to start FOIAball, and why apply Freedom of Information Act requests specifically there? to college football?

SPEAKER_00: 31:20

Well, this is something I've been noodling over for years. At my old job, I ran a public records reporting internship where I taught college students how to use FOIA. And it was really a fascinating, interesting experience. But I always thought I would love to devote myself to this full time. I was running other reporters, covering other stuff. And I could never focus on it. I'd fire off a request here and there. But I always thought if I could do this full time, it'd be something I'd really, really be into. I really love the concept of FOIA. It's a fantastic, fantastic transparency act. Thank you. myriad amount of information you can pull from these schools. And a lot of reporters do it. You know, they'll pull contracts, they'll pull some expense reports, stuff like that. But there's really only in this space, one other site, Matt Brown at Extra Points, shout out to him. He runs a great sort of public records reporting site as well, that is focusing on this full time. And, you know, every, there's 200, plus Division I college football teams. You know, every one of them is generating hundreds of records a day. There's just so much information out there, and it's all available to grab. And, you know, college football has its absurdities and curiosities, and I just really wanted to sort of shed a light on that.

SPEAKER_05: 32:49

It's a great time to be a private university, I suppose, when David Cavucci and Foyaball are around, huh?

SPEAKER_00: 32:55

Yeah, no, Notre Dame, Baylor, Duke, those are some schools that have sort of been frustrating me. Obviously, you can't request them, but there are ways you can backdoor it. One of the interesting things I taught a lot of my students is, you know, you can request a public department's communications with a private entity. So you could go to, not to sort of tease things I'm doing, but you could go to... I am blanking on Waco, Texas and four other police departments communications with Baylor as opposed to going to Baylor and finding it that way. So there's always sorts of interesting ways around it and ways you can manipulate it. So it's a really fascinating, again, piece of legislation. And I love it to death. And I love college football. So combining the two seem like a no brainer.

SPEAKER_05: 33:39

Like you mentioned earlier, college football has its quirks, hasn't always been the most transparent of sports. It's kind of just a mishmash of different rules and traditions and ways of doing things. And I think that just now there's starting to be a sea change in a lot of that. How much transparency did you feel existed before and what had been missing specifically?

SPEAKER_00: 34:05

There's definitely been good transparency, but there's not been... As much as I'd like to see, because the way college football has developed, it's been a mishmash of private and public partnerships. You have public schools, you have private schools, you have private entities like the NCAA, like the Big 12, like the SEC. Those are all not subject to any sort of transparency rules. So you're sort of layering transparency on top of privacy, on top of transparency. So, you know, there's been good coverage of it. Some of the like budgeting stuff, obviously coaching contracts, that stuff's been exposed, you know, maybe like 10 years ago, there was a big push to report on how much coaches were making. They were proving that they're the highest paid employees at their states. But like the governor of a state who's the second highest employee, they're also subject to public disclosure laws. So they're emails are foiable. Their expenses are foiable. Their calendars, I've been doing an interesting dive into the calendars of coaches before games. And so all that stuff is available for the taking. I, myself, am not going to be able to get all of it. There's plenty of space here, but I'm hoping to sort of help kickstart a new sort of transparency push in the sport. You said the word foiable. It's such an interesting verb. I was wondering if that was going to be a pun for the site, but it's just not. I guess

SPEAKER_05: 35:25

it's not a verb, it's an adjective, I guess.

SPEAKER_00: 35:28

Yeah, I think, yeah, it's an adjective.

SPEAKER_05: 35:31

For those unfamiliar, what is the process of filing and following up on FOIA requests with departments and universities?

SPEAKER_00: 35:39

So in a way, it's really simple and it's really difficult. These laws came about in the 1960s when there was no internet, and they were designed to allow citizens to know what was going on in their government. The idea was the US is a democracy. Its power is vested in the people. They have a right to know what their officials are doing, whether that's meetings they're scheduling, contracts they're offering to private entities. So you could, in the 60s, walk up to an office and say, I would like all your documents on this. And the FOIA officer was sitting there. We'd go walk back into the file, sort through it, and pull them out. And so that was very easy. And there's a lot of important lack of regulations on who can do it. A lot of people miss interpret it as a tool for journalists and journalists use it, but it's designed for citizens. You know, you can go to certain states and you don't have to provide ID. You don't have to give a name. You don't ever, for almost any state, have to state why you're doing this. You know, you don't have to tell the FOIA officer, I want to do a story on, you know, this coach and how much he's blowing and, you know, hotel room service. You don't have to do that. Schools are very understaffed in their FOIA office. So, you know, a school like, for example, University of Oregon, they have two full-time FOIA officers. Smaller schools have of part-time ones. So they're getting on average between 200 to 400 requests a year. And a lot of it's junk. A lot of it's a bit kooky. I've sent some kooky ones myself. I won't deny that. But, you know, they're sort of tacit doing all that and they have to go to wherever they think the record is. They have to go find it, you know, to be successful. You have to be really specific. You kind of have to know what may be out there as opposed to just saying, you can't say, give me all of Kirby smarts emails. You'd have to say, you know, give me his emails from this date where he's talking about this thing. And that makes the process a lot easier and speed things up. But, you know, just, Staying on top of it is really important. Learning the laws of the state you want to request it. You know, each state is different. Each state has different rules for redaction, rules for appealing, rules for how soon they can apply. So, you know, like college football, it's a hodgepodge of a bunch of different things. But, you know, anyone can do it. There's no sort of format you need to send a request in. You can just write to Virginia and say, well, not Virginia because you have to be a resident, but Maryland and say, I want, you know, Michael Oxley's contract. You don't need to say who you are. are, why you want it. I've already said that. But you don't need to provide ID. You can just sort of demand it. And it's a really, you know, amazing tool for people to use. But it can be a process. You know, I have had records that have been outstanding for years in my last job. You know, I have records right now that haven't been responded to in months. So there are regulations that require officers to respond in a certain amount of time, but they're certainly overworked. And it's sort of a one in one out kind of deal. So you can be waiting a long, long time for a lot of records.

SPEAKER_05: 38:29

We're talking to David Cabucci, a FOIA ball here on the Heisman Trophy podcast. Your site just launched and you've got a few stories up right now. There's a couple of interesting ones that really caught my eye. In particular, do you have what it takes to be a college football mascot? Tell me a little bit about what you found out about some of the requirements that are implemented by the universities or by certain universities with their mascots.

SPEAKER_00: 38:55

So that story actually stemmed from an interesting discussion with some fans who were helping me brainstorm ideas. And we wanted to come up with, we wanted to do some for us around regulations of live animals at games like Bevo, like Ugga, but sort of similar to what we've been talking about. A lot of those animals are owned by private farms. So some of that stuff is, is restricted, but I thought, you know, there's gotta be all sorts of weird rules around mascots. Like, you know, they've gotta be, I assume they're, they have to sign NDAs. I assume, you know, there's certain, behaviors they can't do. And we did find that out. One of the bulk of the piece was the Sparty Code of Conduct, Michigan State's rules and regulations for Sparty. It was a 34-page document. It had an NDA that I was astounded by how tight it was. The thing would probably hold up in court if you revealed that you were Sparty, but you couldn't tell anyone except your parents. You had to go to absurd lengths to deny it if you were ever confronted. They talked about how to take evasive action to get into the locker room and seem to change, how to respond if someone saw you. You know, they had all sorts of fun little stipulations that Sparty had to stand for the anthem, which obviously makes sense. But I thought that was a fun thing to include. They had a rule that, you know, Sparty could not moon the University of Michigan crowd, which a lot of people rightfully pointed out. And I'd like to find out, too, that that rule had to come from someone doing it and it having to be added to the rulebook. Excuse me. I thought we were in college here. What's going on? Yeah. And then the really fascinating thing was that a lot of these schools, we did records for Wisconsin and Bucky Badger, Shasta at Houston. I have one coming up on the Oregon duck that didn't make it in time. So there'll be some interesting Oregon duck stuff in the future for those who are excited about that. And Big Red, University of Western Kentucky, everyone's favorite. And in a lot of the guidelines for the people inside the mascots, you know, they were required to wash their costumes and the Story got posted to Reddit and a lot of former mascots chimed in that it was just a huge pain. They were required to do this. You know, you'd think obviously a football team has a massive laundry system, but these poor college students were, you know, having to lug their head home, disinfect it, wash it, air dry it, you know, all without their roommates seeing. So it's sort of a fun, difficult, well, maybe not fun, but it's a difficult spot for young college kids to be put in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 41:12

Indeed. Have you hit any roadblocks or seen any pushbacks from schools? And if so, what's the most surprising resistance you've had?

SPEAKER_00: 41:21

I haven't seen any specific pushback. The way it works is that in an ideal world, the FOIA office of a university is completely removed from any other part of it. The FOIA officer goes, you request something, they go and search for it, they decide what's redacted, and then they send you the files. They're not supposed to be contacting the athletic department to ask what they have. They're not supposed to be allowing other people to enter the process. That doesn't necessarily happen. I've seen through emails of them going to the athletic department and, you know, the athletic department says we don't have that contract and they say they don't have it. And, you know, um, you're just sort of taking the word from someone who isn't as bound, uh, by, uh, a particular set of rules as a FOIA officer is. So, you know, there's definitely some difficulties in, in ensuring the process is, um, Operating the way it's supposed to. And I should say almost every school has a fantastic floor officer. They're really great. But in talking to them, you know, some of them said, look, our university president has said, you know, we want to be open. We'll give you this. Others have said our university president said, like, let them sue us. You know, the rule says they have to have it, but they have to go to court to get it. So we'll do a denial. And, you know, it just really depends state by state. I would say some of the I'd rather talk about the schools that have been great. There's some schools that I was surprised that were really good. They expected to difficult with. Like, LSU has a fantastic FOIA office, and I just assumed for some reason that Louisiana would not have a strong public records law. They do. Michigan State's been amazing. So, you know, if you're looking to start out sending public records reports, I don't want you to send them to the schools I'm doing it to, but there's been a lot. And then, you know, there's certain things where I've already started some appeals. You know, I'm doing a thing looking at a lot of these coaching endowments, these endowed chairs where, you know, it's the... Peter Secchia, defensive coordinator at Michigan State, you know, the University of Illinois denied me their records for that. So we filed an appeal with their FOIA office in the state, you know, the Attorney General's FOIA office. So they like refused to release the records on privacy grounds, which is pretty funny because the person's name is on the, you know, head coaching endowment. But they said, you know, they had a right to this to not be disclosed. So that's been sort of, there are some sort of, you know, cough gas hurdles you have to go through. But by and large, it's been, I've been really surprised how smoothly it's gone. These schools know what the law is. They know that they have to abide by it, and most of the time they do.

SPEAKER_05: 43:49

Well, that's great. This new generation of sports media, especially college football media, I don't think is well-versed in the investigative arts like the previous generation, the group that I came up with. What do you hope college football fans will gain from FOIA ball? Is it more about entertainment, accountability, or both?

SPEAKER_00: 44:06

A little bit of both. I mean, I might be closer to your cohort than the younger cohort, but, you know, the one thing I think I really want to impart is that journalism is fun. You can have fun with it. You can do fun things. It's a very serious profession, but it's also, you should be allowed to enjoy it. You know, investigations don't have to be this, you know, in-depth, you know, 10,000 word piece that's, you know, exposing the governor for, you know... burying a body somewhere. You can look into anything. You can find out stuff about anything. People are desperate and craving for information. Not everything has to be the biggest story in the world. So I want to have fun. I want to do some accountability stories. We have a lot of those in the works. We have some really interesting things. Coming up, we're launching, I should say, on August 28th. That's when the first newsletter is going to be. So please sign up now. Like I said, local police departments communicating with college schools. We have records of them giving body cam footage of arrested players to schools without sort of prompting, which is maybe not illegal, but it shows sort of this very interesting back channel. We have some interesting documents about how the Department of Homeland Security is monitoring college football games. So there's definitely going to be a lot of investigation stuff that has a lot of teeth. But the one thing I want to do is never stop having fun along the way. I love college football. I think it's one of the most fun sports. I think it has the most absurd and weird quirks of any sport out there. And I want to embrace that. Just because I'm reporting on a school or saying this program is doing this wrong or that wrong, it doesn't mean I don't like them. I like pretty much every school. I think they all have their entertaining bits. So I'm a fan of it. And as such, I want to just sort of showcase as much of it as I can. Some of it will be airing a bit of dirty stuff, but it's nothing that they're not doing. It's all in the public record. So it all deserves to be out there.

SPEAKER_05: 45:59

So where do you see Foleyball in five years? Is it going to be a niche watchdog site, a mainstream investigative hub, or something else entirely?

SPEAKER_00: 46:07

I have not thought about that yet because we've just been focusing on launching. I'd love for it to be... Uh, everyone dreams to be of being a little bigger, you know, if this goes well, I'd love to expand it to, to college basketball, women's and men, both are really burgeoning, you know, same with NIL. Those are two untapped markets, uh, Olympic sports at public universities. Those have had lots of scandals, I'll just say. Uh, and that is a area that is very ripe for coverage. So if I could bring on more people, expand to sort of a, a hub for public records reporting on all types of college sports, I would love that. Um, but you know, if it just turns into a niche little site that I get to, uh, you know publish my mini scoops on I'll be very happy with that too all

SPEAKER_05: 46:46

right so FOIAball.com David Cavucci mastermind and investigator extraordinaire bringing some transparency to college football always needed and we appreciate you coming on the show thank you thank you for having me Well, I don't know about you guys, but I'm kind of curious to see some of this new reporting from David's site. What's again, FOIA ball, stuff on the mascots. That is some crazy stuff for sure. One of my favorite parts of the season is when I get to talk to Heisman trustee Jim Corcoran. There are, of course, 11 trustees. They serve pro bono. They act as stewards of the Heisman brand. And of course, they oversee the Heisman's charitable mission. One of the things I think you'll hear when you listen to Jim talk is you can hear the passion for college football, for the Heisman, for the charitable mission that the Heisman has taken on. And if you love college football and its history and its lore and its pageantry, then I think you'll appreciate what Jim has to say. All right, as we usually do at the start of the season and, of course, at the end of the season, we are connecting now with Heisman trustee Jim Corcoran. Jim, welcome back to the Heisman Trophy podcast.

SPEAKER_06: 47:58

Chris, thanks for having me. It's always good to touch base at the beginning of every year, see how things are going.

SPEAKER_05: 48:05

Absolutely. You know, last year, the Heisman ceremony drew its best TV audience since 2019 as Travis Hunter and Ashton Denty battled it out. We certainly had a unique and memorable winner with Hunter being the first truly full-time two-way player to win the Heisman since 1961, Ernie Davis. This all happened despite the 12-team playoff sucking up a lot of the media coverage and the oxygen around that time of year. What were your impressions of the 2024 edition of the Heisman Trophy race?

SPEAKER_06: 48:36

Um, I liked the way it was handled. Uh, as you said, it was, I think the most watched, uh, Heisman in quite some time. I think the candidates that came in are obviously you could see they're all in the pros right now, uh, going through training camp. I think they were, uh, they record, they, they showed their, their show, their stripes, so to speak by representing their schools and, uh, who all had good years as we know. Um, And I'll be curious to see how the winner, Travis Hunter, and the other contenders that came in that did not win. I'd like to see how they're going to do this year. The pros should be interesting.

SPEAKER_05: 49:18

Yes, absolutely. Of course, last year we also saw the traditional Heisman Gala change from a nighttime black tie event to a Sunday brunch. How did that go? And do you envision doing the same kind of thing this year?

SPEAKER_06: 49:30

Good question. Good point. You know, so many years, 75 plus years of having that dinner on Sunday night or Monday night. It was one. We were wondering how tradition was going to be affected. And along came the college football playoffs, NIL, a lot of kids moving, going places. So last year, as you mentioned, we decided to go with a brunch. For those listeners out there, if they don't know, the Heisman Trophy presentation is always the second Saturday of every December. And that's because it's the actual perfect time before playoffs, uh, and championship games and things like that and bowl games. So, um, as that's been college football, playoff system is, is starting to get larger. I don't know. What is our number right now, Chris? Are we

SPEAKER_05: 50:28

at 12, 12 and they're talking about 16, of course,

SPEAKER_06: 50:32

12 going to 16. And if they do go to 16, um, you know, we're going to have to play it by ear. Uh, uh, It's possible that that second Saturday, there could possibly be some games.

SPEAKER_03: 50:47

So

SPEAKER_06: 50:47

you may have a contender that might not be able to show up. I think if you looked at last year, all four candidates that came in, all of them had a bye. and were playing two weeks after the announcement was made. So it was okay. But I think you're probably going to run into some issues down the road where, you know, remember, you can go back to some of the earlier Heisman Trophy winners that were either serving the armed forces that weren't able to get to New York, that were on TV. But that brunch turned out to be really a great thing. Lots of compliments from a lot of people who attend saying they really liked being there on Sunday in New York. You know, the telecast is Saturday night. It ends, you wake up and you have to wait all day for the dinner. Now it's be there at 11 o'clock. Let's have a nice brunch and people are on their way. So that tradition will continue to change, Chris, as we move forward and we learn more about Will it go from 12 to 16 to 24? Where's the peak end? And what's going to happen? But good question.

SPEAKER_05: 52:13

There's also been some discussion as far as trying to perhaps start the season a little bit earlier, maybe start it where week zero is now, that kind of thing, so that you can go right into the playoffs. So I imagine the Heisman's going to keep a very close eye on that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_06: 52:30

Yeah, I mean, I mean, take it for example, we open up with, you know, Texas, Ohio State. I mean, what are we talking about? They, they both, you know, I know Arch Manning hasn't been behind center. He's been waited patiently for his opportunity. I assume he's got to be a candidate contender, at least the beginning of the season, but also playing against Jeremiah Smith for Ohio State. He's going to wide receiver. He's going to be a contender. So So, you know, I think that's always the case that I'm sure coaches and players and universities and Whether it's the Big Ten or SEC or ACC, you know, they're always trying to figure out, you know, how do we get more games in? Can the kids play more games? You know, it's hard, Chris, when you're playing at that level to stay healthy, right? If you're going to play 15 games, it's almost like you're playing an NFL season. I mean, how many do they play right now?

SPEAKER_05: 53:30

I mean, 16 games potentially.

SPEAKER_06: 53:33

16 games. That sounds like almost an NFL season. But it should be interesting.

SPEAKER_05: 53:41

Yeah, one of the themes that I'm talking about this season on the podcast is, you know, again, kind of what I've talked a little bit about the last couple years, which is the tremendous changes happening in college football, how they're going, where the Heisman fits in, how it can continue to fit in in the future. What are some of your big picture thoughts on the role of the Heisman as an institution and how it can be protected and, you know, made stronger even?

SPEAKER_06: 54:08

Well, you know, we're constantly, the 11 trustees, we are constantly obviously monitoring the intellectual property rights to the Heisman. We're protected there. So, you know, going forward is, you know... I don't think college, I'm not the only one, but my opinion is I don't think college football following is, is lowering. It's only getting bigger and bigger. So the trophy itself, I believe will continue to be, I think the best award in sports, um, or at least, or at least the most notable of, of, of awards. Um, but, um, We've got great sponsors in Nissan and ESPN, and they continue to do great things, and we continue to find ways to give back to football and give back to sports, because for those people out there listening, the Heisman Trophy Trust, we are a nonprofit 501c3 uh we give away millions of dollars to charities for under uh underserved underprivileged uh youth in our country and we're going to continue to make that statement and we're reaching out it was primarily a lot in the east coast now we're down in texas we're in california we're in atlanta uh we're expanding our our horizon as far as the reach and you know don't be surprised if at some point international reach is out there. That would be... It's being done by all sports, I'm sure. You know what happens when a NFL football team goes over and plays overseas, right? They can't get enough tickets, Chris.

SPEAKER_05: 55:57

They love it. The Germans love football, as it turns out.

SPEAKER_06: 56:00

Oh, my Lord. The concept of that is pretty good.

SPEAKER_05: 56:05

One little thing I wanted to ask you about, I think we talked about it on a previous interview, is the concept of the Heisman voters, right? I think there's been some chat. of perhaps paring down or reviewing the group, maybe trying to get a more like, you know, maybe something leaner and meaner. I'm not sure. Have you guys talked about that? Really

SPEAKER_06: 56:30

good question. And I think that's people who've been following the Heisman for years like you have. I think it's always good to make sure that the voters are knowledgeable watch college football really love that they have the ability to make a vote towards the winner that's something we look at all the time and we're constantly looking at should we be using 872 sports writers or should that be a smaller number personally I think it's probably a smaller number you know I'm not talking about taking it from 800 down to 400, but making a change and making sure that every individual is really who makes a vote and has a vote is watching and paying attention because there's nothing better. Take, for example, jump to, and I know you just saw it this last weekend, MLB, Major League Baseball, and they're Hall of Fame inductees. I mean, I believe, just like Derek Jeter, I believe Ichiro was in the Hall of Fame and one of the voters didn't vote him in. So I don't know if that's a tough crowd. I would actually put that person on a conversation and say, what were you possibly thinking? So people do make mistakes. I get it. But, you know, when things are, It seems like that apparent. Are they just doing it because they don't want to make a person a first-time voter? And so it kind of reverts back to these 872 voters that you're talking about, the sports writers, plus the former winners. They're making a vote that's changing history. And as long as they're taking it seriously, very meaningful, then I'm good. But for those who, you know, maybe there's a sports writer out there that covers hockey and he doesn't cover football. He may be a good sports fan, but if he's not watching like you and I, you know, it's easy to just kind of pick the top five guys at the big schools and say, these are our candidates. But I think you got to pay attention to some of the great individual performances that are being made from other schools.

SPEAKER_05: 59:04

Yeah. Well, you know, and I know that there's a ton of money right now in college football. It's just getting bigger and bigger and bigger. I've seen reports that some schools are considering allowing advertisers to have space on their jerseys, uniforms, helmets, all that kind of thing. If that is the way that college football goes, I was thinking about this. And for example, what if, could a player buy a Heisman patch and put it on their helmet uh and maybe no money no

SPEAKER_06: 59:35

they could you know the the actual heisman logo and the marks can't be used unless we approve of them right so that would never happen but you're you're what

SPEAKER_05: 59:46

if they donate what if they donate a hundred thousand to charity and return to get the they get the the mark on their on their shoulder pad or on their helmet a sticker on their helmet

SPEAKER_06: 59:56

um you know i i That has been brought up to us. They are. They are. The kid from Florida, the kid that won the national championship for the guard for Florida, he left, didn't go to St. John's because Florida alumni offered him money to go play in Florida, and he won them a national championship. So I think that your question is important because what you don't want is you don't need money and funds pushing who the winner of the Heisman Trophy is. I don't care about the other awards. I don't know what they're thinking, but I'm thinking you want the best player on the field that has proven that he is... He is worthy of being called a Heisman Trophy winner. I think that will happen, but like you said, if you were an AD or you were a coach or you were a president of a university and you could continue to have a winning program and you were putting money towards promoting players come here, you'll win the Heisman Trophy. I'm sure. I mean, some of the big schools have won multiple Heisman Trophies. I'm

SPEAKER_05: 1:01:53

sure when they recruit. They did that before. They did that before all this money came in. There's always been campaigns. Always

SPEAKER_06: 1:02:00

campaigns. That's what I meant. Campaigns.

SPEAKER_05: 1:02:02

And so I'm just curious, there is that balance between, like you say, keeping the integrity of the brand and the integrity of the award, and then also the charitable mission. So I was just curious if there was a situation like that where, man, man. It's very limited, very targeted, but it really helps the charitable mission. But how much of the brand do you let that erode just slightly versus bringing in more money for the trust? I'm always curious about how that balances.

SPEAKER_06: 1:02:35

Now, I mean, if there was something general that maybe across all of college football, there was some type of Heisman patch that promoted the game or did some things I don't know that's probably a conversation for another time that we need to have but I'm with you the integrity of the trophy I mean it always comes back these schools can promote their kids all they want

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:03

But

SPEAKER_06: 1:03:03

when it comes down to it, you've got voters that are paying attention and saying he's only run for 300 yards this season. How can you say he's an automatic Heisman camp, right? So there's always that. But I think, once again, for me, the award has always been for the season. And you have great individual one-game performances where you actually say when the game's over, Oh, my gosh. That guy's a Heisman candidate. But if they don't do it again or if they don't keep up the numbers, and it's unfortunately sometimes those– is it wins that make a Heisman Trophy winner the better guy? Is it most interceptions? Is it most touchdowns? What is it that's– to me, it's the person who's most– most important to their team and someone that make, you know, who's our last, who's our last Heisman trophy winner to play on a losing team?

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:07

Paul Horning.

SPEAKER_06: 1:04:07

Paul Horning. I knew you knew that answer. Paul Horning. And so, and curious, it was Notre Dame football back then in 19. 56. 56. Boy, you know it all. 56. So it's, you know, so, but, We know that the academies in Notre Dame football was pretty much everything back

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:30

then.

SPEAKER_06: 1:04:32

But I really believe that you're going to see more and more opportunities of kids from schools that haven't won a trophy. Isn't it great if you can get a Heisman Trophy winner? Now, Travis was the second one,

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:47

right?

SPEAKER_06: 1:04:48

We had Rashad

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:51

Salam. 30 years to the

SPEAKER_06: 1:04:53

season, yeah. God rest his soul. What a great, great, great young man he was. But just to think took 30 years to have another winner come from that school. So, um, it's, it's interesting every year and they're already talking about it. They've already got candidates for this year lined up who they think is, uh, who's gonna be the favorite, but sure. Time will tell. Don't you think Chris?

SPEAKER_05: 1:05:20

Absolutely. It usually does. Jim, I want to thank you for coming by on behalf of the Heisman Trust, sharing your thoughts and visions for the Heisman going forward. And of course, looking back on some great stuff as well. And yeah, we'll probably have you on as usual right at the end of the season.

SPEAKER_06: 1:05:37

Chris, you do a great job. Keep up the good work. I think there's a lot more for people to get their arms around when it comes to the Heisman, the trophy, its mission and all those things. But it's Is there anything better than when you hit August and you know you got three weeks away? It goes from 95 to 75, and I'm walking down the block, and Don, the weightlifter across the street, yells over at me, can you believe college football's getting ready to go? Here we go. Here we go again. It should be an exciting year. I'm curious. Obviously, some big games right out of the blocks that can change things. People's lives and team's lives. So it should be great for all the people listening out there. Once again, this brunch is open to the public. You can buy tickets. You can come to the event. And if you, I think you have the ability, if you buy enough tickets, to the event on Sunday, you can have the ability to possibly go to the presentation on Saturday by buying a table or two. So I'm sure they'll reach out to you. But if there's anything you ever need, Chris, thank you for all you do.

SPEAKER_05: 1:06:52

Well, hey, you know what? I'm here because of you guys. And I love doing it and love talking about the Heisman and talking about what makes it so special.

SPEAKER_06: 1:07:02

Thanks very much, Chris. Have a great, great, great year. Thanks, Jim. You got it.

SPEAKER_05: 1:07:10

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the salt of the earth right there. Well, I hope you enjoyed this show. This was a packed show. I don't think we've ever done four interviews before. He is our featured guest, and then the show after that, I will have content from the big game, Texas at Ohio State, Archie Griffin getting honored for his 50th anniversary of his second Heisman Trophy win in 1975, and maybe a surprise or two along the way. Please, if you enjoyed the show, don't forget to like, subscribe, review, give us all the accolades you can, tell your friends, tell your partners, let everybody know that this is the podcast with the insane guest list. Thank you for your attention to this matter. The Heisman Trophy podcast streams every Wednesday during the college football season and is hosted, produced, edited, and engineered by Chris Houston. The pod is available on all streaming networks, including Spotify and Apple Music, and features video interviews and bonus content on YouTube and TikTok. We also have a Reddit community. Special shout out to Isaac Lowenkron, and big thanks to Rob Whalen, Tim Henning, and the Heisman Trust for their support. Reach out to us via email at pod at heisman.com for feedback and commentary.

UNKNOWN: 1:09:08

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