SPEAKER_05 0:36

Welcome back to the Heisman Champion Podcast. I'm your host, Chris Houston, and we are continuing our off-season exploration of the origins of elite athleticism. We're trying to find out what separates the great ones, the Heisman winners, the gold medalists, the record breakers from all the rest. Along the way, we've talked to coaches, athletes, and neuroscientists so far. And while our last episode went on a journey inside the brains of elite athletes, today we are going to talk about their minds. Our guest for this episode is Elise Devlin, who is a content producer for Peak, which is the athletics' new vertical covering sports, leadership, personal development, and success. What a cool uh beat that is. In addition to her role there, which includes a ton of great insight about the habits of a wide variety of top athletes. She also has an engaging TikTok account, which is how I found her for the first time, where she does a lot of great walk-in talks on the topic of topic of athletic potential, topics of athletic potential and mental performance. So be sure to check that out. Elise, welcome to the Heisman Trophy Podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:32

Thank you, Chris. I'm so excited to be here.

SPEAKER_05 1:34

Well, first of all, uh what a cool beat to have. Talk up talking about leadership and personal development, mental health, and so on. How did that all come together for you just you know to start delving into these topics for the athletic?

SPEAKER_04 1:46

Yeah. Um, well, I I have the journalism background, so I study journalism and I that's always what I wanted to do. Um, but this opportunity came up, and this is this is we launched in April of last year, so it's pretty new. It's it I was kind of on the ground of it with Jason Jenks and Rustin Dodd um and Craig Custins, who's the leader of creative development at the athletic. So um I've been here from the start of it, and we just were fascinated by the mental side of sports. And I, you know, I think some of the most interesting conversations we have with some of these athletes are always um all roads seem to lead back to, you know, what they're doing on the mental side of things, because a lot of these elite athletes, like the work ethic and the talent is always there. But um, some of them that we talk to who who seem to sustain excellence over time are always the ones with the the habits and the mindset and the routines and the, you know, um, so we were just fascinated by that. And I think the coolest part of all of it is that it can apply to any of us. I think a lot of people, um, at least the goal with our coverage is for people to resonate and and find tools and advice that can work for them too. So yeah, I think it was a really cool opportunity uh to explore this space. And so far, it's been uh more than we could have hoped for. It's been it's been very, very cool.

SPEAKER_05 2:57

Yeah, great content. I mean, uh we've spent about two years now, like you said, talking to these athletes, coaches, professors, psychologists uh for Peak. Uh when you're boiling it all down, what do you think, you know, just from your experience, from who you've talked to, what do you think actually separates the elite athlete's mind from just a merely good one?

SPEAKER_04 3:15

Hmm, that's a good question. I would say, like I was saying, I think it is the the habits and the routines and the mindsets. I think to to what I was saying earlier, it you know, the talent and the work ethic is there for these professional athletes. That's how they got there. But I think for them to to perform really, really well and like I said, sustain the excellence. I I think it is um the habits and the and and it almost is becoming more uh popular for athletes to have a psychologist than to not. I think uh, you know, it's it's it's really picking up this this side of things. I I just talked to Cam Young recently and he was like, I'm I'm scratching the surface now that I'm working with a psychologist. And he's performing really well, and he's using these these tools and these um habits that he's learning from his psychologist that he's working with. And I think that is what seems this is just to my understanding from conversations I'm having. I'm not an expert, but um, when you talk to some of the best at what they do, a lot of them are, you know, behind the scenes. Uh Bobby Wet Jr., he's calling a success hotline when he wakes up in the morning. Like they're doing these things that uh other people aren't doing, and and it all traces back to the to the mental side of things.

SPEAKER_05 4:22

Yeah. What do you think has triggered this seed change? Is it just a generational thing? Is it uh throwing everything against the wall as much as you can? Because like, you know, it can maybe some of these athletes figure it couldn't hurt to talk to a psychologist. Um or is it a true, sincere understanding that, hey, this can really help me? What what do you what do you think about, you know, between those two uh ideas and then also what uh instigated uh this uh broader acceptance of sports psychology as being a key part of someone's development?

SPEAKER_04 4:53

Yeah, I think it could be a couple things. I I do, I guess off the top of my head, I would say it's talking about it maybe more. I think uh before I I don't think there was as much communication around this thing. And I also think to your point, it is just being willing to try it. Um I keep using examples, but I think of Doug Baldwin. Uh he's such a good example of this because he was completely against um I forget what his term for it. It was pretty funny, but he used to call it like woo-woo, and he was like, I am not for the self-help stuff. I don't need it. That's not for me, and it won't work for me. And um, then when he got to the Seahawks, Pete Carroll uh brought in Michael Gervais, who's uh I mean he's incredible at what he does. He's a mental performance coach, psychologist.

SPEAKER_05 5:33

Is that the inner game a tennis guy?

SPEAKER_04 5:35

Uh I don't so the author of Inner Game of Tennis is not Michael. Oh, that's not him.

SPEAKER_05 5:40

Okay, yeah. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 5:41

Yeah, yeah. I think his name is Tim, Tim who wrote Inner Game of Tennis, but it is a book that um I I mean I feel like everybody in this space has read, and I I have it myself. I'm reading it right now, actually. So I'm glad you brought that up. Um but yeah, so I I think Doug is a good example of this where like he was there, he was playing for the Seahawks, and he had that. I think at the end of the day, all these athletes are uh, you know, to be at that level, you have to be one, curious, and two, you just want it so badly. I think what fuels these athletes to get to that level in the first place is how badly they want things and how consistent they are with the work that they're putting in. So at that point, I think at the end of the day, it they are willing to try anything to to get better. And I if people hit um, like I was talking about Cam Young earlier, like he hit a block where he was like, all right, well, this isn't working, this isn't working, what's left? Might as well try. Um, you know, working with someone on the mental side of things. And then I so I think it's that just the willingness to try it. Um, so I was I feel like I'm all over the place. But Doug Baldwin, um he he ended up trying things out with Michael Gervais, and he he relies on breath work to this day. Like you find something that works for you because there's so much out there, and that's that's our whole goal with this coverage is we're talking to these people because um if something doesn't work for you, then hopefully the next thing will. And and you just never know, everyone's wired differently. So I think that there's just so much, and um we're still scratching the surface of all of it. So uh I think it's that, and then just the communication. I think a lot of these players are talking to their teammates and they see you know their teammate alongside of them just it transform, like they're just transforming after working with the psychologist some of the times. So then they decide, well, maybe I should try that out and um see if it works. So I think it's yeah, it's communication and just like willingness to try.

unknown 7:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:16

Don't worry about uh uh rambling on because you have so many great anecdotes. Uh, and uh so definitely feel free to go far afield uh from where we start, no problem there. But you know, give me a name uh from the people you've talked to. Like who embodies this idea for you of someone who really uh uses, utilizes that you know inner workings of the mind to give them that, give them that edge?

SPEAKER_04 7:39

That is a really good question. There's so many people that come to mind. Um could it be coaches or athletes or anybody?

SPEAKER_03 7:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:46

Yeah. Um let's see, who do I think of? I was just talking about Shane Battier the other day. He's someone that I I like his conversation that I the conversation that we had always comes to mind just because he's someone that like picks up trash in the park and correlates it back with his performance, and that was so interesting. I think he's someone that believes like if he is this person outside of his sport, it'll trickle back into his like everything is connected. Um I think he comes to mind and he's very wise when it comes to like learning from experiences. He's been in incredible situations and experiences and has learned from them. So um picking his brain is really interesting. I haven't talked to this person. Um, I would love to, but Jared McCain comes to mind too. He's I think he's just I I I think I really appreciate when someone is uh unapologetically themselves, but then also contagiously happy and positive. I've I've seen from talking to these athletes and conversations that I've had how much positivity goes a long way and it's cliche, but it's really contagious, and um I think he's he's a lot of fun to watch because it's like refreshing to see someone um act that way and carry themselves that way. And then I always say Michael Phelps because I've had a lot of conversations with him, and he's the greatest Olympian of all time, and you look at what he's doing behind the scenes, and he was like journaling meticulously, um, working a lot on the mental side of things, and he still journals and he still works really hard on the mental side of things, and he's no longer swimming. He's a he's a dad to four boys, and he's but he's still applying this stuff to his life, and um, yeah, he always comes to mind too, just because he's so passionate about this space as well. And I'm sure I'm gonna go home and think about all these other people that I could have listened to. Because I mean, truly everyone I talk to has something that you can pull from from their experiences. And um, that's the cool part about all of this, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:33

Yeah, thanks for that. Uh you know, you mentioned Shane Badier and going off and uh doing having his habits. You know, you've written about that, that one idea that keeps surfacing, you know, these small internal habits that uh slowly shape how an athlete thinks. Uh beyond uh Shane Badier picking up trash, like what does one of these habits look like in practice and how long does it take, you know, from what you've been able to discern from your interviews, how long do you think it takes to take hold for them?

SPEAKER_04 10:00

Yeah, it really depends, I think, on the habit sometimes. Um I would say maybe like a month of of being consistent with it is usually what I hear from this is just to my understanding, what I hear from a lot of these experts and psychologists who I talk to. Um like I'll give you an example another example actually, and it's football-related. So Adam Thielen, uh, he does or he would rely on this method that I he learned from and then I learned from Sandra Sindra Kampoff. She's a uh mental performance coach for professional athletes. So she worked with Adam and um you can see you would see him on the sidelines doing this. Like on ESPN, they would show him. It's called the learn, burn, return method. And I think this kicks in in like a couple of weeks if you just or uh it it really depends on the situation if something arises and you need to use it, because some of these habits are just meant for situations rather than every day. But I don't know, this is this one's coming to the code.

SPEAKER_05 10:49

Learn, burn, learn, burn, return.

SPEAKER_04 10:51

Yes, and I will I'll break it down. So the first step is learn. So you ask yourself, what am I overthinking? What am I overthinking here? And then you learn from it by very quickly saying, Okay, well, if this happened next time, what would I do differently? Um, you keep it short because some of us are overthinkers and we tend to ruminate, so you just want to move on from it quickly. What would I do next time? Then you burn it by physically motioning something. So you have a physical action that you're doing very quickly while you're verbalizing something. So for example, Adam Phelan on the sideline would say, flush it as he's like flushing something next to his head. So and I think it's so I talked to Cindra about this and the the idea that the physical and the mental combined has something to do with like the neural pathway. Like it's it's triggering the neural pa neuroplasticity in your brain. There's a lot of science behind it, but you want to do both at the same time. So that's burning it. So you flush it, and then uh you return, you return to the moment just by you fixing yourself talk and then I guess just refocusing on what you are doing right, is what Sindra said. So you just readjust your focus. But I don't know, that's like a quick habit that you can do when a situation arises. And um, at least for Adam and some of the other athletes that I talked to, it really helps them. So and it might not help the next person, it but it helped them. It just kind of depends. But that's an example that comes to mind for me that was really interesting. Um, and some of the daily ones are it even as simple as like Buzz Williams, the UMD basketball coach, um, he writes handwritten letters every day. And it's become so beneficial for him and his team that some of the players are now writing handwritten letters to people in their life. And that's like a daily thing you can do. It's as simple as like writing a little note uh before you leave the house or whoever. So there's I and I think that one um is another one that I just really liked. But I I think it all depends to answer your question in a long-winded way.

SPEAKER_05 12:36

Going analog is the is the way to go now, I guess. To help help your brain uh focus.

SPEAKER_04 12:42

Yes. Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

This is Archie Griffin, 1974, 1975's Heisman Trophy winner, and you're listening to the official Heisman podcast.

SPEAKER_05 12:55

One of the things we talk about recently, or we have talked about recently, has uh been uh the kind of the Mamba mentality idea that is common in a lot of uh athletes of a certain generation of kids who grew up in the 90s and 2000s. I was talking to Max Brown, uh uh who's at ESPN, uh former college quarterback, and he talked about, he talked about how maybe this attitude is uh kind of on the way out, that more athletes are uh you know being more well-rounded and not necessarily being hyper-focused on one thing. Uh and I think you wrote something about Kobe Bryant and about uh how he did things. So what did Kobe actually do to uh to get ready for uh for his game? What do you what did what kind of mental rehearsal did he go through?

SPEAKER_04 13:43

Yeah, no, that it's interesting. First, um I'm glad that you mentioned Max because Max is phenomenal. He was actually my second story I ever did before when I took this job. Oh, nice. Um I sat down with him and he's I mean, he you can learn so much from him. He's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 13:54

He's a three-time uh he's been on the show three times, so he's a three-timer.

SPEAKER_04 13:58

No, that's I can see why he's been on the show because he's I mean, you could just continue, he's you're always learning from him. He's awesome. Uh so Kobe, which it to your point, it is interesting because the mama mentality, uh, it's surprising to hear that he would do some of these things behind the scenes because he was such a strict uh stickler almost to his teammates. But so he would sit every single morning uh for 10 to 15 minutes by himself, no distractions, no phone, nothing, and just sit with his thoughts and marinate in whatever he was thinking. And I think um that's really interesting. He would also do it later on before a game, he would sit for 10 to 15 minutes, and that though those 10 to 15 minutes were a little different where he would visualize himself and and before the game, you know, visualize himself uh playing the way that he wanted to play and acting the way that he wanted to act. But in the morning he would just wake up and and I think thoughts would come to him that you know he didn't have time for throughout his day. Um and I think a lot of us could probably benefit. I I tried it myself. We do a lot of like fun service journalism. Yeah. And so a lot of these things that athletes are telling me that they do, I end up doing it myself and writing about it. So that's what I did with this Kobe piece where I sat for 10 to 15 minutes every day for a week just to see what would happen. Uh and I I didn't realize, like I am so busy throughout the day with my job, and then I'm I'm running after work to go work out, and I I never really and I read a lot too, and then I'm listening to music as I'm walking in. I think I just never really sit in in silence and let my brain just rest. And and this is something that I hear a lot from psychologists too that work with these athletes. Um, Dr. Kirsten Cooper, she was on the US Alpine ski team herself, so she was a great athlete, and then also now she works with professional athletes. And she said when she was, I think it was in grad school, she would just sit. This was a per uh advice from one of her professors. He told her to go do this. She would sit in a room and just stare at the ceiling and let her brain just rest. And like whatever thoughts came to her, she would just so it's like a form of meditation. Obviously, meditation is uh in a lot of ways, some forms of it you're trying to get rid of the thoughts and just uh not think about anything. But yeah, in this way I would view it as I would use the word meditation, you're still resting, you're just addressing some stuff that maybe has been suppressed, or it's background stuff that's been um floating around that you you maybe need to sit with and marinate with and um or marinate in. And I think uh it reminds me too of this other thing that again Cam Young talked to me about. Um, and I also watched it in the TV show Shrinking. They they highlight this in the show too. I've heard about it a couple of times through a couple of different mediums, but where you you sit and you marinate in a feeling or an experience. So let's say Cam said if he played poorly and he was upset about it, he would sit for 10 to 15 minutes, set a timer, and and allow himself to be angry about it or think about it however long or or however he wants to think about it, whatever. He lets those thoughts come, and then when that timer is up, that's done. And that was his time for the day to think about it and ruminate over it, and then that's that's done. And I think there's just like the I the idea that allowing yourself to sit with something and and sit with your brain by itself with no distractions, I think it's just fascinating. And uh turns out there's a lot of benefits to it, according to the people I'm talking to.

SPEAKER_05 17:12

I saw something recently about uh about the benefits of raw dogging raw dogging an airplane uh flight. Uh you know I remember the Syncloud episode.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

Yeah, yeah. Like people think it's crazy and weird, but I I don't know. I I are people doing it more often?

SPEAKER_05 17:27

I don't know. My brother once flew from uh Singapore to uh to Athens. He had no book, no magazine, nothing to listen to. I think he just didn't plan ahead. And and to me that'd be like the biggest nightmare of all time. But uh but apparently it's good for you. So, you know, who am I to say?

SPEAKER_04 17:45

Yeah, I think it it's it's it goes back to like when we're in an elevator or we're in any kind of transition in our day, like the second a flicker of boredom comes, we're like, oh, check our phone. Like we're just always, I think we're stimulated by something. And so it's this idea of like not even when we wake up in the morning. I feel like a lot of people are telling me how they they value the first one of the day. Um, Oscar Piastri, he's uh a really great F1 driver. He was just telling me about like when he wakes up in the morning, that first move of the day dictates everything. So I think it's like just letting yourself either sit with your thoughts or or not check your phone and not be overstimulated right away. It's you know, it's good for your brain and in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_05 18:27

Yeah. On the show, I keep circling back to this one question is the mental edge something you're born with or something that you build from everyone you've interviewed, where does the truth seem to land uh uh in that regard?

SPEAKER_04 18:38

Yeah, that's a good question too. You're filled with good questions here. I I think again, I will preface by saying I am not an expert and I I didn't study psychology. I I just am the messenger here. I presume.

SPEAKER_05 18:49

You've talked to so many experts though, you know.

SPEAKER_04 18:52

Yeah, so I do pick up a lot from them. So it's my understanding that I think I I think you're born with certain things, but I do think you can build a lot of it, which which is probably the most surprising thing I think I've learned in my coverage, because I was an athlete too, and I swam at I was not a professional but I swam at the division one level and it was it was really competitive. And I think I look back and I always thought that some people were just you know wired in a way where they could relax and they could have fun before races, and I was like, oh man, like I wish like I was I was riddled with performance anxiety. I I was so nervous all the time and I worked so hard, and then I just felt like my lack of confidence held me back. And I always thought that oh, like people are just just that way. It's like a personality thing or something. Like I just was always so nervous. But I I think of like Jack Golke, who he was like this March Madness underdog turned legend almost. And and he sat down with us a couple months ago and he was like, confidence is a skill, you can develop that. And so I think um maybe in my my own personal opinion, you can't teach someone uh work ethic, maybe. Like I feel like it's instilled in you deep down to to be a really, really hard worker, like genuinely, and um talent is you know, obviously another thing too. But when it comes to like confidence and and you know, develop you, I think you can develop some of those skills and you can build that. And I think through a lot of hard work, like what we're seeing with some of these athletes we're talking to, like they've worked really, really hard on the mental side of things and have developed into different players and different people over time, um, just through being really consistent with with that work. And yeah, Jack's a good example of that where um he was such an underdog coming into March Madness, and he, I mean, he was he blew up. Like I felt like that was ever what everybody was talking about when he came. And um, he talked about how he just over time developed confidence. He he never had it to start with. And so I look back and I'm like, I wish that's what I could tell myself. I wish um I realized like I I could have developed that and I could build that. It was never a personality thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:52

Um based on the people you've talked to, has anyone given you an insight into like what happens inside an elite athlete's head like in the final seconds of a close game? Uh to the point where maybe like you get an idea for like why some rise and w uh why others freeze. You know what I mean? I uh are and also maybe you can also you know curious about you, like if you're if you're in the last 10 meters of a race and and you can feel someone right next to you, uh what's going on in your head when you're trying to get to the you know to the end of the race and try to win? Uh is is it just pure panic? Is it just pure go go go? Uh I'll let you uh let you uh cook on this.

SPEAKER_04 21:31

Yeah, I'll try to cook on this. I'm a couple of years out. Um I graduated a few years ago at this point. But for me personally, I think I just tapped into like a different I like blacked out almost. Like there are I've been in I mean so many close races to the point where it was getting down. And racing is a little different from like a game, like I guess uh but uh it it's all similar in a way where you get down to those final seconds and you have to be kind of clutch and and kind of come through for the moment. And I think When I look back at those races in my own life, I just zoned out and I just dug really, really deep. And there's no other, I wish there was another way I could word it because it's hard. I mean, what does that mean to dig deep? I think it just you just you just I I think I just zoned out for those moments. I I do think um I have talked to a couple athletes about that specifically, and I think the preparation is huge. Like you I think some of them are thinking in moments because for example, like I I do think I I I think the best thing I can do here is give examples, and that's what I keep doing. But I think of like I talked to him a while ago, Steven Goskowski. He was the kicker in the 2019 Super Bowl for um for the Patriots. And if there's like a minute and 19 seconds left, you can correct me if I'm wrong, in the game, and he's getting ready to kick, and it's like he has time to think about that. So, like in a race, I don't really have time to think. I'm just like blacking out and digging really deep, and I'm just like turning off my brain and just letting my like muscle memory. He had time to think before that moment. So, like it could be like a clutch, like free throw in a basketball game, too, kind of similar. And I think he said the best thing you can do to be good in that moment is just to prepare ahead of time, and then that gives you confidence. So he and you have to, I mean, uh, it goes to show in the moment you have to be telling yourself, like I have done this a million times. Like self-talk, I think has been really, really um big in the conversations that I'm having. So uh he said that he just prepared and prepared and prepared, and like I mean, he it was an insane amount of kicks that he just did during practice, it was nonstop. And then by the time you get to that moment and it comes down to the wire, you you want to be the person that's in that moment. Like, look at the the Olympics, the NHL uh not NHL, the Olympic hockey team. Like when it comes down to it, like I they they want to be in that moment because they prepared so much for that they they trust their ability. So I think I think it's just telling yourself the you know, the self-talk is big, telling yourself that you've been there a million times. I think also like rehearsing game time situations like that is really key. I think um there's a lot of professional coaches that do that with their players and they they force them to like rehearse these moments um ahead of time and pr and like pretend that they're in that moment so that when they do get there, they're like, I've been here already, I already know what I'm doing. So I think that's big too. I hope that answers your question.

SPEAKER_05 24:14

No, it does, and it actually it jives really nicely with what Fernando Mendoza talked about when I talked to him about that kind of thing. So yeah, it seems to mesh pretty well. Um you you talk a lot about like pre-performance routines, and some of them, you know, I think are probably genuinely pretty useful. Uh, and maybe some of them are like a little bit superstition kind of in that world. Um do the athletes themselves kind of understand like when it's a superstition and and when it's just like something that's genuinely useful?

SPEAKER_04 24:43

Yeah, I think that is a that's a good question because I think rituals is something that I've been talking a lot about recently with athletes. Um I used to think that rituals were like superstitious and it wasn't a good thing to have that. Um and it kept like it was like a slippery slope or something, but I've actually learned that they're pretty good and they give you like comfort or a sense of uh to better word it better, a sense of control in in uncertain moments. So like when you are in an uncertain moment or you're in a pregame routine and and you don't know how the game's gonna go, when you do have a ritual and and you stick with it, um, it just gives you that sense of control, even if it's subconscious, it's it's like it gives you that that feeling like you can do it. Um he takes like a freezing cold shower before every single match. It was like 20 minutes before he would go on the court to play. Um, I think he did it before like his big Wimbledon match too. And and it was like, yeah, there might be benefits to the I think it's like I forget what it's called, but there it there's a benefit to it scientifically, but also it was just the idea that he had this ritual that he knew he did before every match, and it was like I've just gives you a sense of comfort, I guess.

SPEAKER_05 25:45

So there's I saw that on I almost took a shower before this interview just so I could like you know be uh optimal, but I thought it it it was probably going too far. Maybe I'll do it.

SPEAKER_04 25:54

I was glad that I wasn't assigned to that one because Rustin and I we go back and forth with the I tried stories and he got that assignment. I was like, I'm glad that I'm not he he's done the cold showers one. He did he drank coffee like Dan Campbell for a day, which is if you're familiar with Dan Campbell's coffee routine every day, it's insane. Uh so I'm glad that Rustin took that one on. Very thankful that he took one for the team there because I couldn't have done that. But yeah, I yeah, the cold showers is a good example. I I think um a lot of them do have these rituals. I think more often than not, they have rituals before, and I I think it comes down to a sense of control, sense of familiarity. Um, and then maybe some of them do. I I talked about Bobby Witt Jr. earlier, where he calls it success hotline. There's benefits to calling the success hotline in the morning. Uh, you're getting a motivational message. It's it's positive talk that you're you, you know, it's motivational, but also he's he does it every day because it it's his routine and and you feel comfortable in your routine. I feel like we're most confident when we have a routine that we can stick to, and um, you get to know yourself better when you're figuring out what works for you, what doesn't. So yeah, I think that's that's important.

SPEAKER_05 26:56

Well, what's the strangest routine or or uh uh kind of uh ritual that you've come across?

SPEAKER_04 27:02

It might be Bobby Wick Jr. It might be that's a good thing. That is pretty weird. Well, I mean, I um I think his name is Dr. Rob Gilbert. Um, he's a professor at I think Mammoth in New Jersey. In New Jersey, and he has had this for years and years and years. He's been doing this, and it's awesome. I just had never heard of anything like it. Uh and so I I was calling the the hotline when I was waking up in the morning and doing that story. Uh I thought that was really, really cool. I think at first I thought it was weird, and then I started doing it every morning, and I was like, you know what? Like I can get behind this. I probably I never stuck with it. I probably wouldn't be able to do what he does and do it every single morning and sit there and listen to this message. But I think that was um funny. I I'm trying to think of like weird ones. The coffee thing is is hilarious. Um trying to think what else I've done. I I did Muay Thai, like Jalen Brown. I think that I wouldn't use the word weird. It was just interesting that like I go back to the mama mentality. I feel like growing up, uh in my case, like I gave up all my other sports because I needed to swim Division I, so then I had to pour myself into one sport. Um versus now, like I feel like people are actually finding benefits in in doing other sports on the side and and having these hobbies and these interests, and it's considered good now, um, which is awesome. Yeah, and I've talked to a lot of people about that. But like Jalen Brown, he he when he's not playing basketball and for the Celtics, he's doing Muay Thai with this coach in Boston. And so then they had me do Muay Thai, which I learned a lot in that. Um but it's because a lot of these interests and hobbies that you have, it's funny how it like translates, you know, a lot of these skills and these things that you learn, um, it translates into your performance. And if anything, too, you feel like I Tara Vanderveer, she's like this legendary coach, and she told me that she like learned when she spent time doing the things that she wanted to do outside of coaching, then she returned to coaching more energized and and more passionate because um yeah, there's a lot to that too. So uh yeah, sorry, I I know you asked about weird who's like, No, no, it's it's good.

SPEAKER_05 28:57

It sounds like that, but it but again we keep coming back to this idea that you need to reset your brain and but you also need to have there's kind of a a little bit of a dichotomy there, like you need to reset your brain, but you also need to have a routine, right? So uh you need to like reset your brain and then go back into your routine, and maybe the routine's a little more fresh, which allows you to do it uh more effectively, is kind of what I'm thinking, you know.

SPEAKER_04 29:20

Yeah, yeah. I would say that's that's a good way of putting it. Yeah, the dichotomy is funny though. It is a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

Hey guys, this is Barry Sanders, the 1988 Heisman Trophy winner, and you are listening to the official Heisman Trophy podcast.

SPEAKER_05 29:35

Uh do you think the best athletes uh suppress emotion or do they channel it?

SPEAKER_04 29:41

Ooh. I would think channel it. I uh well, maybe a little bit of both. I um I would think they channel it in a in a good way, where like there's a lot of tools where you can take your emotion and channel it. But at the same time, I think some of the tools also work to suppress it. So I really think it depends on the situation. Like in some situations it might be helpful to channel it, and in others it might be helpful to suppress it. Like we're talking about the learn burn return method earlier. I think that's a situation where you would want to suppress that that fearfulness or that overthinking. That's where you're looking to just, and not even suppress it, just get rid of it. It's almost like flush it, get it, get it out of your system. Um, so I think that's that's the one way to look at it. But yeah, I do think in some sense senses you can channel it, um, especially in those big time end-of-the-game moments where you have that a lot of that emotion. If you can learn to to navigate that emotion in the right way, you can channel it to be effective. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:33

So I think it's a little bit of both. Okay, very good. Uh your story on Michael Phelps and the support system Jay Glazer built uh suggests that even the toughest competitors uh lean hard on other people. Uh how does vulnerability fit into elite performance?

SPEAKER_04 30:48

Hmm. I think it's like such a relief when you talk with someone else at your level and you notice that they're dealing with the same thing that you're dealing with. I think um that was my biggest takeaway from I mean, all those guys that I talked to for that story, um sitting down with them, they were all like, we were always taught to not express our emotions and to keep it to ourselves. And that worked against them. Because I think when you do um suppress your emotions in that way, it works against you in this in the way that like, even if it is in the background, it's coming out in different ways in your performance, in your life, in your relationships. Um, and the second that you're vulnerable and you talk about it, um, one, it's a relief and a weight off your shoulders. And two, you can connect with someone over the same thing that you're dealing with, and then they maybe have a tool that you can learn from too. So I think like Jake Glazer and Michael Phelps, for example, the two of them, they're constantly learning from each other because they deal with the same thing, they're battling the same thing, and and it's so nice to be able to talk to someone who's going through the same experience as you. I think that's like a very human thing. Like we love to connect with people. That's why we have I mean, that's why we tell stories. I think that's like movies, books that we've had it for how long now? And I think it's at the end of the day because we just want to connect to other people and we want to see ourselves and other people. And I think that's what um those guys were doing, and I think it helped them tremendously. Um, and it all boils back down to performance because you just show up as a better version of yourself. You you have a clearer head and you have more tools, you're more equipped um to deal with pressure and to deal with failure and to deal with um, yeah, the things that are going on in your mind. So that was a really thank you for bringing that up. That was such an awesome story. I felt so honored to work on that one because those conversations were um just I very eye-opening, but they're gonna stick with me for the rest of my life. I I think um it was awesome to see that people at that level are are just like us. They're people. I think that's something that people forget about all the time. That's one of the biggest things I've I've learned in this job is like I have these conversations, you know, 40 minutes to an hour sometimes with someone, and I'm just one-on-one, and I'm like, they're just, you know, they're people and they're dealing with the same stuff that we deal with, um, just on massive stages and in the public eye. So they're forced to to get through it with these, with, with tools, and that's what we can learn from them. But um, yeah, I think their whole point of of telling their stories was they said to me, like, we just want other people to realize that even us like at this level of of elite performance, like we're we're still dealing with this stuff and we're still getting through the same things that everyone else is. So it's um yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:13

It seems to me like that it's almost like a necessity to to to have some vulnerability now because uh of the changes in society with social media and with with with how how everyone is is a you know is a target at some point or seem especially uh as an athlete, just like the criticiz, you know, the level of criticisms, like the the the multitude of of of uh inputs that uh athlete gets now from from fans, from media, from from from all kinds of uh different angles, right? And so uh athletes needed new tools to deal with that, is kind of how I how I think it's for sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:54

Oh my gosh, yeah. And I think yeah, the social media thing is such an interesting thing to think about and talk about because I mean a million people are weighing in on a moment that you had that I think like it can get in your head, and I think some people take it differently. Like I you look at like someone like Steph Curry, who like during halftime of a game, he checks Twitter, like he types his name into Twitter and like reads the people who are sitting on their couch tweeting about him. Like he reads those and he gets motivated from it. So other people are wired differently. It is wild that there's a whole thing that you can talk about with that, but other people it it crushes them. Like I'm someone who it definitely like I that gets to my head and I wouldn't be able to like even as a writer, they tell us not to read her comment section because everyone's weighing in. And I think that is a huge thing now, and there's just so much more pressure, and um yeah, and I I think it's important when it comes to this though, like one, I think it's important to not doom scroll and and and just watch all the stuff about yourself, and that's why at least the conversations that I'm having with these athletes, they're like, I can't watch all these clips of myself and I can't read all this stuff about myself. It's important not to, if anything. Um, and it's important to have like a good supporting cast in your life who can um you value their opinions and you value you know what you're learning from them, and and that's all you can do. But um, yeah, I I sometimes whenever I have these conversations too with people when it comes to like social media and the extra pressure, a lot of it comes back down to like why their why. Um, because I think it's easy with all this extra noise and this extra pressure and the social media, it's easy to forget like what you're doing it for. I mean, like social media, NIL, I think all of this, um like it's important to have your why through all of it, and that'll get you through a lot of it. I think that'll fuel you, if anything, in a lot of big moments. Um, there's a lot of people who really believe in that. I know like Pete Carroll has a mission statement and he believes in mission statements and having one. Um, I I'm trying to think of other examples. There's a lot of people. Stacy Copeland is like a professional boxer, and and she was in the Commonwealth title fighting in that, which is like a it equates to like a world championship. She had like a moment where she was like, What am I doing? Like, why am I there was all these cameras everywhere? It was gonna end up on social media. Um, and she looked across at her opponent, and it's like this scary woman who's gonna try and like beat her up. She was like, Why am I doing this? Like, and then she it fueled her and it it got her back down to you know where she needed to be when she thought about her why and she thought about the 11-year-old version of herself that was like, I just want to like, I just want to do this, I want to box. Like, I I think it wasn't until like 1996 in England where she's from that boxing for women was even allowed. So she she had so many like dreams as a young girl, and then so then right before that moment, she was like, That's my why, like that's what I'm doing this for. Like, how dare you betray that little girl who wanted this so badly? Um, so I think like that's what a lot of these conversations come back to is I think people can get distracted.

SPEAKER_03 36:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:41

Um, and it it works against them to look at all that stuff. But um, if you can have like a very strong um like mission statement or why behind you at all times that you can go back to and you really believe in it and you took you take time to think about what matters to you and why you're doing what you're doing, that can help, hopefully. Um, from what I've gathered and and the conversations that I've had. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:02

Yeah. After all these interviews, what surprised you the most? Uh I mean, like, what's one mental hab habit that uh any of us could borrow from an elite athlete tomorrow?

SPEAKER_04 37:12

Yeah, I think what surprised me the most is that you can develop some of this stuff. Like I said earlier, like I I just feel like I went my whole life as an athlete thinking, like, oh darn, like I'm not a confident person, and that's just like a thing that stinks, and I'm just gonna have to work around that. And I think it was probably the most surprising to realize that like I can develop all this stuff. Um, I think the most surprising habit. Oh um surprising habit. Um I don't know if anything is like surprising. I think it was surprising to see how many habits are the same for these athletes. Like, I think the whole conversation I have done a lot of interviews and I have talked to a lot of athletes, and a lot of the same stuff comes up. So it is surprising to see that like when you really dive into it, a lot of them are doing the same things, and I think that's cool to see. Like, I talked to Spencer Schrider last week, and we sat down for like 45 minutes and just hashed out all the mental things that he's doing recently because he just is he's returning from injury and he's been injured before and he's dealt with all this stuff, but now he he works through it with some of these mental tools to like talk about surprising. I think it's cool to like when he's in a big moment, he um really focuses on objective versus subjective thinking, which is where like someone that's an overthinker, for example, like I was talking about myself earlier, where I um and I I like that you mentioned Max Brown earlier because I feel like a lot of the conversations I've had with him, where I I we talk about like you're over like a lot of athletes overanalyze stuff, and there's a way that you can work around that, which is like tools like what Spencer does, which is thinking objectively about things. So like you take yourself out of the situation when you're in the moment, let's say he someone just hit a double off of him and now someone's on second base. Before he would think subjectively, which is where he's thinking in his own brain, like, oh my gosh, like now I have to fix this, I'm gonna have to do this, versus like take yourself out of it and think like if you were just watching the game, what happened? Someone made it to second base. Okay, like that's what happened. It's fine. So I think like taking yourself out, thinking of yourself in the third person, um, is really big. And um, there's a couple other things that uh other people do, like another one, since I'm thinking of Spencer, is like he is really big on like delayed gratification, which was surprising. Um so like his favorite thing in his whole life is his coffee. He loves coffee so much, and that's what he looks forward to every morning, but he doesn't allow himself to have his morning coffee until he completes all his tasks that he has to do so that he can really enjoy the coffee. And there's like something about that delayed gratification. So he's making his bed first thing in the morning. Um, that famous like make your bed speech. Uh, I think it was like the Texas commencement commencement speech years ago. Um, he really resonated with that. So he makes his bed every morning, he does this and he does that. And then he finally sits down and it's like he compared it to when you have an essay due in college and you can't even enjoy hanging out with your friends because you like have that essay floating over your head and you're like, oh like I really have to write that. Like, and you're not in the moment. He's like, there's there's an importance in like enjoying the things that you really enjoy to the fullest. And so that was cool to hear him that he like purposely waits to do his favorite things until he does the things that he doesn't want to do. Um, so some of them have crazy ways of uh they have crazy routines and cool ways of living, but um I I mean it works for them and and they're at this level, so yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:26

So many interesting mind games going on uh in the field of sports. Um Lise Devlin is uh the main content producer for Peak, which is uh a great uh section over at the Athletic uh covering uh uh leadership and uh mental health and all these kinds of great things we've just been talking about. Uh go check it out, check out her TikTok. Um great, not only uh interesting uh content, but also useful things as well. Elise, thanks for coming on the Heisman Trophy Podcast. Really appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge.

SPEAKER_04 40:57

Thank you, Chris. Thanks for letting me ramble. I I appreciate what you're doing too. This is an awesome space, and um I love that I love that you're doing this. So thank you for having me, and I'm so excited to be here.

SPEAKER_05 41:07

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

Every Wednesday during the college football season and monthly during the other season. This show is produced, edited, edited, and hosted by the Heisman Ponds of Chris Houston. The audio portion of the Pond Campus as well as transcripts is available on all streaming services. While full video interviews and clips can be found on our YouTube channel and especially thanks to the Heisman Foundation and this video that you have to face and find some presentation and any further support.