The Heisman Hopefuls Podcast
The Heisman Hopefuls Podcast, hosted by Heisman historian Chris Huston, features year round interviews with top Heisman contenders, insider stories from Heisman history, hard-hitting discussion of the latest college football news plus updates on the Heisman Trophy Trust’s charitable work. New episodes every Thursday. Follow @HeismanTrophy on all platforms and watch clips on YouTube and TikTok. Contact: pod@heisman.com
The Heisman Hopefuls Podcast
Utah QB Devon Dampier & New Mexico DE Darren Agu
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It's the 75th episode of the Heisman Hopefuls Podcast! Celebrate as we chat with the star of last weekend's biggest game, Utah quarterback Devon Dampier, who has his Utes at 9-0 and ranked second. Come for discussion of Utah's exotic offensive formations, stay for Dampier's love of all things Spider Man. Next, we talk to a player from the school that Dampier transferred from, New Mexico's Darren Agu, a freak of a defensive end who has NFL scouts buzzing. This London, England, native gives us the low down on how he adjusted to life in America, why British teeth get a bad rap, and how soccer gave him quicker feet for football. We close with Alex Kirshner of the Split Zone Duo podcast, who gives us his take on everything from the Heisman race to the new 24-team playoff.
The Heisman Hopefules Podcast streams every Thursday during the college football season and is hosted by Chris Huston. The pod is available on all streaming networks, including Spotify and Apple Music, and full videos of the show are available on YouTube, with clips on TikTok and Instagram.
Email us at pod@heisman.com for feedback and inquiries.
Welcome back to another episode of the Heisman Hopefuls Podcast, where every week we talk to the best players in the country, regardless of position, regardless of program. First off, I'm recording this on Veterans Day. So thanks goes out to all my fellow vets for your service. Second, this is the 75th episode of the pod. So I want to thank all 149 guests who have come on the show so far, the schools that have worked with us to schedule them, as well as the great folks at Heisman for all their support these past four seasons. Our 150th guest is a good one, Utah quarterback Devin Dampier, fresh off leading his youths to a come from behind 28-20 victory over BYU in the Holy War. He was on our show in September of last year, and he's back again now in November with an undefeated Utah team ranked second in the latest college football playoff ranking. His team has a big matchup with Arizona on Saturday, a game that Heisman voters will no doubt be keeping a very close eye on. After that, we'll talk to a player from the school that Dampier left a couple seasons ago, the University of New Mexico. You may not have heard of defensive end Darren Agu, but he's tearing it up for a Lobos defense that is at or near the top in almost every major statistical category. We'll get the rundown on his remarkable journey from London, England, to Georgia, to Nashville, and finally to Albuquerque. And we'll close things out with Alex Kirshner from the Split Zone Duo Podcast, which he co-hosts with Richard Johnson, who was on this show last season. Alex is an astute observer of the college football scene who puts out great content at a variety of publications, including The Athletic. But you should check him out on TikTok and Instagram to get his best stuff. After this episode, there are just three more shows to go before we head to New York. Getting down to the nitty-gritty in the Heisman race, and it's been a war of attrition, unlike any I've seen in recent memory. So many good players dealing with injuries and adversity. It's kind of hard to believe, but there's a possibility we could be heading to the home stretch of the season with the Heisman completely up for grabs. Could this be the closest Heisman vote of all time? We'll talk about all that and more after the music.
SPEAKER_06Every program, every position, every player.
SPEAKER_01They are all Heisman Hopefuls. Today's featured guest is the quarterback for one of only two remaining undefeated teams in the FPS. This 5'11, 210-pound senior has the Utah Utes at 9-0 and ranked number two, its highest ranking ever. So far this season, he's thrown for 2,053 yards, 20 touchdowns to go with 482 yards and seven scores on the ground. He also caught a pass last week that went 29 yards, completing 68% of his passes, folks. He can do it all. He's one of the he is efficiently directing an offense that is one of the most creative in the country and a leading candidate for the Heisman Trophy as we get to the home stretch of the season. Your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man slash dual threat quarterback, Devin Dan Pierre. Welcome back to the Heisman Hopeless Podcast.
SPEAKER_04All right, man. I'm happy to be on here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you are the 150th guest on our show, 75th episode. Big congrats on that. And to a great start to the season so far, especially that big win over BYU last Saturday. What a scene afterwards on Rice Eccles Field. Even your dad got into the celebration. Tell me what you saw in the aftermath of that win and what that experience was like, just letting it all wash over you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, you know, it was definitely a great atmosphere the whole entire game. Um the crowd was very involved. So um, you know, after the game, I was shaking up a couple of the defensive players, and then um just as that was happening, a couple of fans started grabbing me as I'm shaking the BYU's uh players' hands and stuff. And then um that's kind of when I realized, like, oh, okay, they're they're storming the fields, the field's getting a rush today. So um it was such a fun experience. I seen my brother in the crowd. Uh got to see my dad. Uh uh. I saw him raised above some people in the crowd. Uh somebody had him held up. But um, yeah, it was a very cool experience to have um post-game for sure.
SPEAKER_01What was your reaction when you saw your dad? Like, what was your first gut reaction?
SPEAKER_04Well, I didn't think it was him until I got home and I talked to him. He was like, that was me. I was like, there ain't no way someone was able to pick my dad up and was willing to do it and just had him up there. So uh it was a pretty cool experience for the whole family.
SPEAKER_01That's amazing. Must have been an unbelievable sight. Uh, you obviously had a great game against a tough BYU defense, 177 passing yards, 89 rush yards, four total touchdowns. So before we get into things, I want to show the audience at home what might be your signature play so far, the aforementioned 29-yard reception. Let's cue it up and look at the tremendous effort you made in this play. So go ahead, Owen, and set up the scenario. Uh, let's look at this. Uh, Devin, we're at fourth and one here. You're down 20 to 14. Uh, what was this set set this play up for us? What was going on in the huddle beforehand or coming off the sideline, the message from the coaches, and and how exciting was it to know this play was coming?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, um, you know, we kind of had two different plays in this look where uh, you know, there's obviously one where Way Sean does run the ball. And um, you know, that's kind of what I thought was called at first. And then um as I was running to the sideline, they're like, no, no, no, you're in. So then I was like, oh my bad, my bad. I kind of messed, messed up the play by almost running off the field. Um, but then I kind of he was supposed to like I thought they were gonna like go totally crash on Wade uh running the ball. And I kind of looked up and he was he was zyeing me down. So um Creed told me all week he was like, I'm gonna throw this ball to you regardless. So just be ready. So that was kind of just my mindset out there at that point. I was just like, all right, he's throwing me a one-on-one fade ball.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you you looked real like you're spread really wide. You're almost on the sideline there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. I just try to I try to make it seem like it's it's the run, and we're just trying to pull another body out of the offense to let Wei have the numbers in the box. But um, yeah, that's how it went.
SPEAKER_01So in your mind, so right now you're thinking, okay, I've got a uh, I think what is it, like an inside release you're doing, uh, I think on this play? Uh did you think about how you were gonna execute this route?
SPEAKER_04I was really hoping he was gonna like just stop looking at me, and I was kind of waiting for him to stop looking at me, and it never happened. So I was like, oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02Alright, no one, let's run the play. Tremendous throw. Look at that. High pointing the ball. What do you think?
SPEAKER_01What do you think it has the I mean, did you track were you able to track it pretty quickly?
SPEAKER_04Uh yeah, I kind of just seen the ball in the air and I was just like, I'm gonna go make a play on it. That's kind of just a thought process, all kind of instinct, because I mean, all week of running that play, it was very much I was wide open and I just had to catch the ball. So uh that was very just instinct being able to do that at that time.
SPEAKER_01Just kind of down at the playground throwing the ball around, looks like.
SPEAKER_04Yep. Just like the good old days.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. How many times did you run that play in practice?
SPEAKER_04Um, we normally did it like once a day. Uh every day. We just at some point during our our walkthrough kind of tempo period, it would get called in um just to make sure, you know, if we do it every week for when we needed it, and um that was the time we we pulled it out, and um, I'm happy it worked out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what a great timing on that play. Great call, great execution, incredible play by you. What a great effort. Uh, it reminded me a lot of some other great plays by some guys who won the Heisman Trophy who who made similar types of catches uh as quarterbacks. And so we're gonna look at a few of these, and I want you uh to uh to have a look. This first one is RG3 in 2011 against Baylor. It's uh that's a third. That's crazy. Watch him and the catch the ball in traffic here.
SPEAKER_04Yes, that's a cat. That's a cat.
SPEAKER_01So okay, so keep keep an eye on that one. And then we're gonna go to our next play, which is Cam Newton against Ole Miss in the coffin corner.
SPEAKER_02Hey. Okay. Okay, Cam scored on his. Yeah. They really do him a one-on-one. That's it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01All right, and then there's this third play, which is the 25th anniversary of this play, which is a little uh receiver pass to Eric Crouch. He's gone in secondary there.
SPEAKER_04What they call that now, the Philly special. You know what everybody called it.
SPEAKER_01It's called Black 41 Flash Reverse, is what that one's called. Famous play in Nebraska history. Eric Crouch Heisman Trophy winner.
SPEAKER_02There we go.
SPEAKER_01And then and then this play, which kind of has an element of what you did, Marcus Mariota taking the hit.
SPEAKER_02That was my guy growing up. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so based on on your performance, your catch, where would you rank your catch amongst those four? And how would and which one of these four is most impressive for you?
SPEAKER_04Um Cam Newton's was pretty sick. But he no, he's also uh probably a lot taller than that quarter on him. RG3 got kind of hit. Like that that's like the real quarterback moment where like you know you're gonna get hit, and you're like, I'm still gonna catch this ball for my team. So yeah, I was I think RG3 R RG3s was pretty cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And uh the play design was pretty cool, I think, as well.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, that I'm I would have never thought to do the double pass that way. The open up the middle line. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Open up the middle, yeah. Kind of something that uh you guys might have might have designed. Uh so uh let's talk a little bit about uh speaking of the Heisman. Uh your school has gone behind you with the Heisman campaign on your behalf, the hashtag uh Spidey Spidey for Heisman, coupled with a line from the school fight song, let your voices be heard through the mountains near and far. What do you think of all this new Heisman attention?
SPEAKER_04Um man, just grateful, honestly. Um very grateful to be in this position. And um I'm just thankful for everyone being behind me, honestly. Um I feel like Heisman sometimes gets looked at as you know the individual reward. And um, you know, it's it's me in that running, and guys are so supportive of it. Guys are the guys in our locker room are hoping I win it. The fans are hoping that as well. So just for them to be behind me on an individual award is um pretty huge. And you know, I hope my my team gets the credit when uh I'm able to go up there and represent.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Did you know Utah was gonna post that?
SPEAKER_04No, I didn't I didn't know that one was getting posted, so that that was sick. And I got a lot of uh reactions sent to me and stuff like that. So um it's it's very cool. The fan base is so involved.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, it's funny, you know, it's not something you weren't expecting, apparently, because at Big 12 Media Days, we had a film of you predicting that you were gonna start striking your special Spidey Heisman pose by week seven or week eight. Let's have a look at that clip, get you on record here.
SPEAKER_03You know, Heisman pose come with a little bit of Spider-Man action, so you gotta hit the Heisman and flash the web at the same time. So, you know, expect that like week seven, week eight, I'm gonna hit that. That's crazy. Yeah, you know, let's go turn into so that's pretty close.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we are pretty close to what I said that that would happen. That it is crazy that speaking into existence is uh it's crazy how how things find their way. So um pretty cool situation.
SPEAKER_01Little prophecy, big game coming up against Arizona. If the moment is right, are you are you gonna strike it?
SPEAKER_04If the moment's right, I gotta I I definitely gotta uh do what I need to do out there for sure. And uh yeah, I think that'll be a pretty cool touchdown celebration.
SPEAKER_01Coach Scaly's in his first year at head coach, he talked recently about how he apologized to you for all the coaching turmoil that took place in the offseason. Tell me about that conversation and what the adjustment was like after the coaching change.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, um, you know, just me, me and Beck, I feel like we, you know, we built a pretty uh good relationship just coming from New Mexico to Utah. And um, you know, just seeing those guys leave, the the guys that kind of allowed me to level up as a quarterback. I mean, that was my first time being a starting quarterback in college football. So um just to see how much change happened uh at one time it was it was difficult, it was a lot. Um I had surgery around that time, just a lot of things were going on in my life that were pretty um impactful. So just the fact Coach Scale was there to, you know, be that guy I can lean on, uh, be that guy that could relate to me and uh give me what I needed to hear. Uh you know, I I tell people all the time, Scaley, Scaly's been such a great mentor towards me. Um, and I just follow his footsteps as being a leader.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and after all that, you had a decision to make whether to stay at Utah or not. Uh, what are three tips you would give to another quarterback faced with a similar decision and situation?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, uh, you know, I'm I'm big on being being where you're wanted. And um Scaly showed me every part, I mean, even our whole coaching staff. Um, I got done with my surgery and they all waited for me outside of the airport. As soon as I walked off the plane, I got to see all of them. So um, you know, that was huge. And just the fan base, I mean, my first year here, they're they're so great anywhere I went. Um, it was encouragement, it was um just nice interactions. So just fully feeling where I was wanted. Um, that's the best advice I could give.
SPEAKER_01Feels like a great vibe you guys have going there. Is is that, do you think like has it been uh essential to how well you guys have done, just having that great vibe, having that togetherness that you're talking about?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, I I preach and uh I don't try to knock down any other college uh programs, but I just think here at Utah, we do such a great job of uh keeping brotherhood and keeping um choosing a school and like it being meaningful. Um and I feel like you know that's the type of guy Scaly tries to recruit, guys that that want to be here for the right reasons. And Scully's let us be a little bit more, I would say, playful this year, just being a lot more relaxed when um times are not needed to be serious. And uh just when people are able to feel like themselves, be able to be comfortable who they are, uh I think that's when you get the best out of your players.
SPEAKER_01It sounds like you guys are really playing free, you know, from the outside looking in, and there's a few reasons why you guys are doing so well. You obviously the new staffs have done a great job. You've finally been healthy, but I'm kind of obsessed with the job that offensive coordinator Kevin McGiven has done. It's such a unique offense. Uh, the use of uh semi-talonga at fullback, the misdirection, the jumbo packages, the QB counters, the weird formations, constant motion. Tell me about that first exposure to the playbook that he had and what you guys talked about as far as how they were going to use you in the scheme.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, our first conversation was he was like, uh, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna make this offense around you, but I'm also gonna challenge you in ways you've never been challenged before in college. And um just giving me responsibilities of uh making checks and being involved in the O-line blocking and uh just hearing the whole entire call, moving guys to the right times when needed. And um I mean, he's definitely allowed me to grow as a player, but uh him as a coach, I mean, it's he's he's a fun guy to be around. He truly lets us players be involved in some of the play calling uh he makes out there. And uh just such a light-up guy. He's I always try to loosen him up when games get closer. He it's funny, it's funny he gets a little bit nervous. I'm like, McGiven, you you're a great play caller. Like I can't believe you're nervous. Like, I'm not at all. So we make those jokes, and then he gets in there and uh he does what he does at such a high level.
SPEAKER_01Sometimes the player needs to calm the coach down a little bit, you know?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, let him know he can lean on me anytime.
SPEAKER_01You know, uh some of those plays, I look at them the way they're designed. I mean, you could uh I think there was one play uh I saw where you uh hit a hit a uh receiver slanting for a touchdown. You could have ran it in, you could have tossed it to him for a touchdown. There's like three different ways you could have scored on that. But I see that a lot with some of these plays that that are designed.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think that that's the biggest thing that, you know, I always tell McGivin that I like in our offense is uh he gives me those options to to be right. Um, you know, the defense can do so many different things and um you know cover up certain looks and just the fact that there's always another option out there on during the play that um can can just give us a better opportunity to make the play work. Um I I love that, you know, he trusts me to make those decisions. I mean, he makes the play to have three different outputs, and he's expecting me to make the best decision when I'm out there. So um I definitely appreciate the the trust he has in me.
SPEAKER_01You know, I don't want you to give away any trade secrets, but what's like the craziest play you've seen drawn up by Coach McGiven?
SPEAKER_04Man, probably that four for one call. I was like, oh, this is the play for four for one. You know, I think all week we've been playing it as like a maybe a third down call when it was four for one. I was like, okay.
SPEAKER_01That's one of those plays where where if it doesn't work, people are like, why did they call that play?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's that there's definitely uh two sides of that play. There's no in between.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're they're definitely grateful. Uh Coach is definitely grateful for you making that play for sure. Made them made them look good. Uh the call made the call look good for sure. Uh you guys sometimes line up with two quarterbacks. I know that's something Coach Beckett started. You and Bird Ficklin back there, by the way, that's a great name, Bird Ficklin. Uh what did you think when you first saw those plays and started running them? It seems like a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it it is a lot of fun. I mean, Bird, for one, just who he who he's being this year. I mean, being a backup and finding a way to be involved in our uh in our offense, finding ways to get on the field and impact our team in any way. Um, that speaks a lot on his character and on what this team means to him. So just being back there, it's it's cool. Like, you know, we're in the same QB room, so we have the same mindset on the same plays. So when he's out there, he's thinking the exact same thing as me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's kind of nice to get people involved uh in in the play, right? He's a quarterback. Most quarterbacks are sitting on the bench, he's out there contributing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, he he makes it super hard for the defense. Uh when you see two quarterbacks out there, I mean, you have to almost expect any anything to be called, like uh any type of double pass, any type of pitch options that we've ran this year. Like, I mean, it's it's crazy how much the stress that puts on the defense for and how much they have to overprep for us as well, just because anything can happen. So it's a huge element to our offense.
SPEAKER_01It always struck me as a great idea to do, and it's kind of exciting to see somebody actually do it. Uh, I wonder if it's do you think it's gonna catch on in college football?
SPEAKER_04I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. I think, you know, I think when you have the guy the right guys and uh they're there for the right reasons and you know are willing to put the team first, uh you know, I I definitely think some teams might might hop on the trend.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You know, I know you're a big team guy. You don't like to talk about yourself too much. So I want to give you the chance to talk about some of your teammates who you think deserve some more attention. Tell me about some of the glue guys on your team.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, okay. Um, I you know, I think uh Alex Harrison, our center, um, you know, he's one of our captains, and man, he he has a lot of influence on our O line. Um, you know, he's he's the leader of that pack. So uh I feel like he doesn't get talked about enough. Uh I think Daniel Bray, Daniel Bray's another one. He, you know, he takes he takes whatever reps he gets after Way. Um and man, he he makes the most out of them. And uh as you can see, even against BYU, you know, there's plays we sent him in motion, and um just the amount of respect BYU gave him, it it made the run lanes even easier for me and Wei Sean to find our way to the end zone. So uh just those guys putting putting the team first.
SPEAKER_01Um, you know, with the little recognition they get, uh I'm very proud of, you know, who the Utah has had one Heisman Trophy finalist, Alex Smith, back in 2004. He was also a great dual threat quarterback. You've now spent two seasons at Utah and you have a good sense of what the fans were like. What do you think it would mean to the folks in Salt Lake if you made it to New York?
SPEAKER_04Man, it would be huge. I mean, um, you know, I I don't want to say Alex Smith's like older, older generation now, but I remember watching him when he was on the Chiefs, you know, I used to use them on Madden quite a bit. But um just kind of for the the newer generation, the new people in in Salt Lake City and at the school, I think, you know, just to have that modern history of someone be able to go to New York, I I think they would be behind it uh the same way they've been this whole entire time. And um just the again, the interaction that I got to have with so many fans that I don't normally get to have just with the field rush. Um it was pretty sick just to hear those comments and you know hear how much they believe in me. Have you been to New York before? Uh I've I've been once. I've been once and it's it's pretty cool. So So I definitely enjoy a trip back.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you will have a good time if you make it out there for sure. We can't let you go without talking about your favorite Marvel superhero Spider-Man. Let's close out with some Spidey themed questions. First, have you seen Brand New Day?
SPEAKER_04Yes, for sure. I I did my last, I did my my second last post about because you know when he he says he's both the Spider-Man and Peter Parker. That's like that's like literally who I am. I guess I'm literally football. I'm literally a QB and Spider-Man at the same time, so that it was like relatable.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I thought it was solid, honestly. And I tell people like Tom Holland hasn't had a bad movie. Like everyone's like, everybody's a big Toby fan, which I get. That's who who most of us grew up on, but like Tom Holland hasn't had a bad movie, so he's just like he's kind of he's kind of creeping up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I think you might have accidentally uh answered my next question, which is I want you to rank your favorite Spider-Man between Toby McGuire, Andrew Garfield, Tom Holland, or maybe you're more of a Miles Morales guy.
SPEAKER_04See. I will say I am a big Miles. I think the movies are like crazy. This the animations and the stories behind it. I think they did a good job across the universe. Uh and then, you know, I'm I'm not gonna I'm not gonna rank them because I think they all impacted me in in some different way. They all they all got a special part in my heart. So I'm not gonna rank any of them. But I'm a big spider spider lover for sure.
SPEAKER_01Which opponent this year played the best uh super villain?
SPEAKER_02You know, probably probably this past week.
SPEAKER_04Uh I think I think BYU was really good, honestly. They're they're they're they're a really good team. Like decides going against them, and uh, you know, so are we. So that was just fun to be like toe-to-toe with those guys. Um and just the the turnout for us to be able to find a way to collect as a group and you know get that win. Um if I if I like the the true story.
SPEAKER_01Should have been taught called uh Spider-Man Holy War.
SPEAKER_04The Spidey War.
SPEAKER_01The Spidey Holy War. Spidey Holy War. Well, Devin Dampier, thanks again for coming on the Heisman Hopeless Podcast. You've made our 75th episode extra special. Good luck against Arizona Saturday, and good luck the rest of the season, and maybe we'll see you in New York.
SPEAKER_04Hey, appreciate it. Thank y'all.
SPEAKER_01Our next guest is one of the best players in the country, starring for a University of New Mexico defense that is through nine games, the nation's leader in points allowed per game and total defense. And among the leaders in every other possible category, it seems, this is a unit that has allowed only two rushing touchdowns all season. Our guest is a six foot-six, 252-pound senior defensive end who transferred to UNM from Vanderbilt. He is currently tied for fifth nationally with 15 tackles for loss to go with 6.5 sacks, 35 total tackles, and seven quarterback hurries. He's twice been named the Mountain West Defensive Player of the Week, and he is drawing considerable attention uh from NFL scouts who just love his size and athleticism. He's helped his team to an eight-and-one record and its first ever AP poll ranking, currently sitting at 23rd. It's yet another remarkable story in a sport that is always full of surprises. And our guest, Darren Agu is himself a surprising story with roots in Ireland and England before finding his home in the land of enchantment. Welcome, Darren, to the Heisman Hopeless Podcast.
SPEAKER_05Hey, thank you for having me. Thank you, thank you. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, welcome, welcome. It's so exciting to have a player from New Mexico on our show. As you know, it's a program that has struggled a bit historically, but now Coach Jason Eck has things coming there for you guys. Uh what's it been like to see this defense go from what it was last year, which was fairly solid, to what it is now, which is an elite unit nationally.
SPEAKER_05You know, um you go through the offseason, summertime, spring, putting in work every day. You know, every day's a struggle. You know, you wake up beat up, but you keep going. Uh, you see the coaches putting in effort. So when you finally reap the rewards, like the feeling's amazing. And, you know, we was working hard since the season ended in 2025 because we know what the type of defense we could have been after the bowl game, playing so well against a uh team like Minnesota who's doing so good right now. So we just saw the potential we had and we put our heads down and we just worked hard and reaping the rewards.
SPEAKER_01What do you guys do schematically that is is uh so special, do you think? What's the secret sauce?
SPEAKER_05We're just not afraid to uh let guys loose, you know. Like if we if we want to blitz guys, we'll blitz guys, you know. We we know we get that. We know we got guys that can cover, we know we got guys that can rush, so we just balance each other up. Um I don't I don't feel like we lack uh any position on the field on defense.
SPEAKER_01Okay, you gotta tell me how a kid born in Ireland and raised in London who grew up on the sport that the world calls football, how did that kid turn into such a good player in the American version of football?
SPEAKER_05Um I was always competitive. Uh I played soccer growing up. I was pretty good at that. Um played uh for a showcase team, I played against academies, uh uh like Leicester and stuff. So uh I was always like pre-athleic. Um but then I just got to a point where um I just stopped liking uh you know soccer. So I had one of my uh big friends, he he was uh he was playing football at the time, American football. He was an old line, he was playing for a local team, and he told me I should come try out. So I did, and like every kid, you know, that first plays, I was uh I was playing wide receiver. I was watching all Dell Beckham highlights, trying to do the one-handed catcher stuff.
SPEAKER_06So yeah.
SPEAKER_05But then from then on, I just kept playing, I kept enjoying it, and just kept progressing. And my competitive side in soccer just translated into a football and then just kept out of it.
SPEAKER_01What is uh the state of American football in the UK? There's been lots of games there being played, uh, whether it's college or pro. Has this really started to gain a following in that area?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, definitely. When I was when I began playing, it wasn't that big. The NFL Academy hadn't opened up yet. Um, but then um, I believe a couple months after I turned 17, 16, the NFL Academy opened up and just started progressing from there. And now uh we got the NFL Academy playing IMG Academy and all these other teams in the US and in Europe. So it's progressing slowly, but it's definitely progressing. You can you can see guys, uh way more guys from overseas in the UK playing college football in the US compared to when I was uh first playing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. How's the talent pool there? Do we are most of the guys who end up playing American football are are they coming from rugby or are they coming from from soccer? Where are they coming from?
SPEAKER_05They're coming from rugby, uh rugby, sucker, uh pretty much those two sports, because those are pretty much the two sports that for like the UK pushes, you know, for the kids to play. But most of my friends that I um played with, uh Say to Treori, he played soccer growing up, he was a goalkeeper. Um I played sucker growing up. Uh another friend of mine from Tariq, Tariq, he plays in the US, he played soccer growing up, he was a goalkeeper. So I feel like uh a lot of guys from the UK transition from soccer or rugby.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But what did your parents think about you switching from soccer?
SPEAKER_05Initially, they were like, they didn't know what American football was, so they were like, they thought I was uh I thought I was crazy because you know I was good at sucker, so my dad was my dad was lust, he was confused. He's like, yo, why do you want to stop playing soccer when you're so good at it? So that was there was kind of some pushback at the beginning. Um, but then I just I just kept on uh telling my parents, yo, I want to I want to play American football. So, you know, I just kept practicing and they came to one of my games and then they saw I was good at it. And then they just said, oh, let's just let them keep playing and see where this goes, and I'm here right now.
SPEAKER_01How long did it take for them to pick up the game to be able to like really understand how well you were doing?
SPEAKER_05Honestly, they still don't really understand what's going on. They just go off what they see on the UN social media page. Like if they see a picture of me, or like a post that I made a play, then they know I played, I made a play or I'm playing good or something. But I know that they don't really understand completely what's going on. They're trying. It's a difficult spot, even when I first transitioned, it was kind of hard to like, you know, get the grasp of it. But they're trying.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, to be honest, there's a lot of Americans who don't really understand what's going on in the world.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, like the rules, like the flags or the different flags, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What did soccer give you that still helps you uh at your position, whether it's rushing the pass or playing the run? What are some little things you learn in soccer that really helps you out now?
SPEAKER_05I say footwork can just change the direction. You know, soccer is a sport where you always move in, you have to have good coordination, you gotta have good feet. So I never really struggled with footwork or coordination when I first started playing. It always came natural to me, like, you know, um the movements or like learning new movements. So I'd say one good thing soccer brings is probably that footwork.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and when did you have your growth spurt? Because there's not too many guys your size playing soccer. Was it a fate accompli at some point that you had you couldn't play soccer anyway?
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Um, I remember I think I was uh 15. I was pretty, I wasn't even really that tall compared to my classmates, but I had a major growth spurt and then I had really bad knee pains. Um so then I I couldn't play sports for some time because I had Oscar Slice, or I think that's how you say it. Um and uh it star I just couldn't like play. I think it was my left knee, I just couldn't do anything. So I stopped playing. I grew to like 6'3, I was like the tallest in my class, and then uh they put me in centre back because I was so tall in defense, so yeah.
SPEAKER_01You're born in Ireland and raised in London. Do you consider yourself Irish or or English?
SPEAKER_05Um both, to be honest. Yeah. Um I'm proud of both of my roots. Uh I'm proud I was born in Ireland. You know, I know Ireland's Ireland has a wonderful history, but also I know England has a wonderful history, and England provided me a lot growing up too. So I claim both.
SPEAKER_01So you went to uh when you went to high school, you went out to North Georgia area in the rural country there. What surprised you the most about American school life?
SPEAKER_05Um, how friendly people are, you know, everyone's saying good morning, everyone's so welcoming, everyone's so willing to help. And growing up in London, especially East London, everyone's like confrontational, you know, if you look at someone wrong, they think you're trying to like square up with them or trying to like fight them. So um just having people being so friendly to me kind of felt weird. Like I didn't know if they're being genuine or if they're, you know, I don't know what the motive was behind the actions, but then the more I um hung out with uh new faces, new people, like it changed uh, you know, it changed my perspective.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Now you were East London. Does that mean that you're you uh a practitioner of of the East London uh uh slang and then cockney and all that?
SPEAKER_05Um I do have uh like I don't like you know the accent we don't I feel like we don't pronounce our T's. So like when I say war, I don't really say the T. So I always get uh trolled uh by my teammates or people whenever I you know say can I get some water or something? So yeah. But they definitely do have an accent though, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Sure, but what about the slang itself? From what I understand, it was always to stay one step ahead of the of the upper class. You always have like the code word to be able to s to speak.
SPEAKER_05Honestly, it changes every every time. I have a cousin growing up right now in England, he's 18, and I use the old slang, and he laughs at me because it changes like every time. So yeah. Honestly, I don't even I'm not even up to date with the slang back home right now.
SPEAKER_01So uh when it came time for the recruiting, that must have been a pretty wild experience, right? You you have all these schools, you had over 31 offers, schools like Notre Dame, Alabama, Tennessee offering you. You eventually chose Vanderbilt. What was that process like for you being completely new to it? Uh, how prepared were you for it? And why did you eventually choose Vanderbilt over Notre Dame and Tennessee?
SPEAKER_05Um, I, you know, I had a bunch of O's. Um my parents didn't really know what the offers meant, so I couldn't really turn to them to ask for help. So I had my high school coach and my like coaches at my uh my high school helping me. And initially, what um what what like uh helped me make the decision to pick Vanderbilt was, you know, if you get hurt in college, you always have the degree to fall back on. And you know, Venable was a prestigious academic school, so that was something that I looked at because you know, post-football, you always want to have a good degree to fall back on. And the connections you get from Venable help can help you anywhere alive. So that was the reason why I chose Venable, and I also believed in Coach Lee's uh mentality about rebuilding Venable at the time, you know. I wanted to be a part of something, uh a rebuild, similarly to how we're a part of a rebuild kind of right now in New Mexico, you know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So yeah. What did three years in the SEC teach you as a as a defensive and outside linebacker?
SPEAKER_05Uh football's a physical game, you know. Um I played against the best. I got to experience how we was playing against the best of the best. Uh pretty much playing as close to NFR as you can, playing in the SEC, playing against all I mean that 6'6, 6'5 plus, 300 pounds plus. I said that guys are gonna be going up against on Sundays. So um I the experience definitely helps me playing on Saturdays now now in New Mexico. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You go from uh Georgia to to Tennessee to uh the desert. Uh that often a culture shock in uh every circumstance. What how long did it take you to acclimate to to be in a New Mexico?
SPEAKER_05Transition just moving from London to Raymond Gap, that was a shock. Moving from uh city to like the middle of nowhere in the mountains, and then moving to Tennessee was kind of moving back to a city. So I uh I always have uh love for Tennessee, you know, Nashville. I always enjoy going back, it's a wonderful city. And then moving to the desert in New Mexico was another shock. I remember flying in for the first time, looking out the window, all I saw was desert sand. I was like, where the hell am I? But then uh when I landed and uh I got to like you know see for myself, kind of experience like the culture and the people here. Uh I realized it wasn't as bad as I thought it was. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You had a piece of problem back in May of 2025, kind of kept you out of joining New Mexico. You missed uh camp first part of the season. Tell me about that whole process, what it was like, uh, and how you got through it.
SPEAKER_05It was super stressful. Uh my faith was tested a lot. I was stuck back home for a long time. I missed the whole of um summer workouts, I missed full camp. I was coming up for good spring. So I was excited to be back, but missing everything, I just felt like I wasn't a part of the team, like I felt like I was behind. And then I missed the first two games. Um and then I remember watching the mission game game on FaceTime with my wife, uh, who's my fiancee at the time. So it was it was difficult. It was difficult, but um, I knew I had to stay in shape because I knew I was gonna come back. I just didn't know when, and I wanted to be ready. I didn't want to, you know, just come back out of shape. So uh it was hard to stay disciplined, but I did, and I came back in the best shape I could have for UCLA.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, tell me about uh your uh pass rush moves uh with the trees in the park. I heard about that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, uh there was a park not far from my house, uh, and I'd just set up cones and just pass rush the tree, welcome my strikes on the tree, and there'd be strangers walking by just looking at me, like giving me the look, like, yeah, what's this guy doing? Some people ask me, am I playing rugby? But I'm like, nah, it's football, American football. So it was kind of it was kind of funny because the looks I was getting, but I had to get my work in some way somehow.
SPEAKER_01You had a big breakout year this year. What what changed for you versus last year? Obviously, you had more time in uh in off-season workouts, you went through camp. Was it just that or were there other things that that really clicked for you?
SPEAKER_05Pretty much just having a summer with Coach Haim and then a whole camp with Coach Loney and Coach Spence uh just got me as ready as I could for the season. And also Coach Loney hopped on, you know, just emphasizing, studying your opponent, looking for the smallest details. And you know, we have a great DC who installed a mindset into us of just you know, never backing down, keep on, keep on going. So I feel like um I fully bought in in the second year at UNM and I'm reaping all awards.
SPEAKER_01Tell me about some other guys on your defense who deserve more attention. Uh some guys who who who you think are kind of glue guys helping hold the team together.
SPEAKER_05Honestly, the whole defense is playing well. Um everyone, everyone's uh everyone's playing well. The whole D line, we play off of each other, the linebackers are playing well, Mercury Flake, uh Clay, what other guys that uh rotate in? Are secondary's playing well, you know, John, McBean, uh Combs, Broly, everyone. A whole defense is playing well.
SPEAKER_01Are we gonna go through a few uh fun questions here? Uh in in uh 30 seconds or less. Tell me which sport is harder, football or football?
SPEAKER_06Football. American football. Uh which Premier League club do you support? Ghana's Austin all the way. Yeah, London is red.
SPEAKER_01Uh what's a better atmosphere, a college football or a derby day?
SPEAKER_05Uh it's closed derby day.
SPEAKER_01All right. Uh name me three things that surprised you the most when you arrived in America, ranked from mildly odd to completely baffling.
SPEAKER_06Food, candy, uh no sidewalks.
SPEAKER_05Everyone's driving cars. Yeah, no one walks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no one walks anywhere. Uh okay. What would you rather have? A full English breakfast or a breakfast burrito from your favorite place in New Mexico?
SPEAKER_05Oh. I think I'm gonna go with the English breakfast.
SPEAKER_01Oh man. Yeah. You're dedicated.
SPEAKER_05I just don't like the chilies. I I'm already good with hot spicy food, you know. My stomach can't hold it down. Oh, keep them cooked for the rest of the day if I eat something spicy.
SPEAKER_06The beans on toast, right?
SPEAKER_05I need like my I like my food like Maya, the like just light spice.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I want you to explain a sack and a blitz and the jack position as if you were talking to your grandmother in London who's never seen the game.
SPEAKER_05Okay, uh, you line up in front of this fat guy, as soon as the ball goes, you have to get the guy who's throwing the ball. And yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh name one thing that Americans misunderstand about Britain and one thing that Brits misunderstand about America.
SPEAKER_05Um, it's a good one. One thing we misunderstand about each other. Uh not all of us eat beans and toast. Um and then one thing I feel like UK guys misunderstand. No, not every British person's teeth are bad. I feel like every American feels like uh believes like we don't have good dental health care or something. They feel like our teeth are messed up. So and then one other thing I feel like the UK people misunderstand about Americans, uh not every American's fat because they feel like you guys eat a bunch of McDonald's and stuff.
SPEAKER_01There's always uh there's always hints of truth in everything. Uh probably um uh Austin Powers is probably to blame for the for the dental for the last generation of Americans. Well, hey, Darren Agu, thanks for being such a good sport, answering these questions. Thanks for taking the time to congratulate. Appreciate you having congratulations on a great season. Thanks for coming on the podcast. Good luck again, CNLB, and good luck the rest of the season.
SPEAKER_05Appreciate you. Have a great day.
SPEAKER_01All right, we're gonna close out this episode with someone who I've enjoyed following on TikTok lately. He's Alex Kirschhner of the Split Zone Duo Podcast, and he likes to talk about the very strange world that is college football. You can follow him on TikTok at Alex underscore Kirschner and on Instagram at AKershner. His co-host Richard Johnson was on this very show last year. So it's a fitting bookend that he made it over here as well. Welcome, Alex.
SPEAKER_00Chris, great to be with you. Honored to be here.
SPEAKER_01Great to have you. You know, so one of the things I like about your channel is that you are, to paraphrase the movie Almost Famous, honest and merciless about what's going on in college football. Seems like there's a lot of access journalism type of coverage out there, uh, but you sh tend to shy away from that. You're not afraid to step on some toes, but you're also not really gratuitous about it. I don't think uh how did you fall into doing what you do?
SPEAKER_00You know, I started doing college football media for SB Nation in like 2015, 2016. And the SB Nation College Football Desk, I think had a slightly more irreverent, outsider-y take on how to cover college football. But as you say, didn't do it in a way that I would call gratuitous. And so my rule that's been passed on to me by my journalistic mentors, the Jason Kirks and Spencer Halls of the industry, Stephen Godfrey, is be honest. And if you would be willing to say it to someone's face, you should be willing to say it to everybody else, and vice versa. And if you're gonna say it to everyone else, you should be willing to say it to someone's face. So I I do think it's really important to have a bit of a counterbalance to overly access dependent college football journalism that doesn't excuse you from journalistic responsibility to be ethical. To be honest, to look out for your audience rather than for some shadowy third party somewhere. And uh and I've been really blessed to be able to do that thanks to the people who listen to our show and uh who have hired me to write about it and given me that chance.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well said, uh Alex. You know, at the same time, you look at the algorithm uh at the places you tend to flourish on TikTok, for example, and your your very insightful uh commentary is next to these AI accounts that regularly show college football players and coaches in these absurd clips singing and dancing. Have you seen those clips?
SPEAKER_00I I have, and I admit that I have chuckled at a few of the NPR tiny desk concert AI memes where they're singing outstanding and there's a saxophone, but I just don't really relish a content ecosystem where that's what is interesting and and that's what's exciting to people. I guess I don't get to pick. Uh none of us get to pick. It seems like it's got a lot of traction right now. Uh so I have seen this, and I d I don't know if it's taken us anywhere good in the long run, but we don't get to pick.
SPEAKER_01It's kind of creepy, huh?
SPEAKER_00I would say it's extremely creepy. I would say it's extremely creepy, and I think in the case of a a meme like this tiny desk concert thing, no one could possibly mistake it for the real thing because it is such an understood meme format and communication device. But I think we have big problems in the world uh with people losing the ability to distinguish what is real and what isn't. And the AI models have gotten so good in such a short period of time at passing off fake as real that I'm I I could see it bringing about the the downfall of society. But anyway, um enough about that. More about the Heisman Trophy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, this is the Heisman Hopeful show. We are trying to be hopeful here. So let's do some Heisman talk. So far, it seems like no one's really grabbed a hold of this race. And one of the reasons for that seems to be all the injuries that have befallen so many of the key players. There's Julian Saiyan, Dante Moore, Camario Taylor, Malachi Tony, uh Gio Lopez missed last week. Colin Simmons was uh on a huge tear and on a great pace before he got hurt. And these guys being hurt has had a boomerang effect on their teammates who might also be contending. Uh, look at Jeremiah Smith. Uh, some of the other guys have been good, but maybe not as consistent as in previous years. The offensive numbers are down a bit. What do you think is going on here?
SPEAKER_00I think you're onto something that it's been sort of a weird year, sort of because of the injuries, sort of because some of the best players on the top teams, the most standout guys, aren't quarterbacks, frankly. And I say this with all due respect to the trust and to everyone who votes on the Heisman. I think that there's a bit of a quarterback attachment, specifically a quarterback on high-level winning team attachment that has revealed itself in a lot of years of Heisman voting. And that doesn't really work this year outside of perhaps Darien Mensa at Miami, who's an interesting player and an interesting guy. I talked to him for a story a couple weeks ago, or CJ Carr at Notre Dame. These are both really good quarterbacks who are going to have long productive careers. You could say the same about Devin Dampier at Utah, Drew Messamaker at Oklahoma State, but I will admit, and I could say this as a non-voter, that the apple of my eye in this Heisman race is a wide receiver on a team that's probably going to miss the playoff. And that's Jeremiah Smith at Ohio State. And, you know, does the Heisman voting block, you know, ultimately come around for one of the most extraordinary college football players we've ever seen, but who doesn't really meet the typical positional and team success criteria for the award?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it is a bit of a quandary. Uh on the other hand, with that all said, we could be looking at a real nail biter of a Heisman race here when it's all said and done. What do you think is gonna ultimately determine the winner?
SPEAKER_00I think the can I cop out and say the next three weeks plus conference championship games? We'll probably do it. Uh I I think, I think that if Jeremiah Smith continues to set the exceptional pace that he has set, that he may be such a historical figure in the sport that he sort of breaks out of the mold where in a lot of years it's it's just going to be a quarterback on a top two or three team or so. I I think you know, continued targets and high-level production for him makes this really interesting. Uh and you know, how does Notre Dame and how does Miami finish the season? Uh, in Miami's case without Malachi Tony, uh, probably at least until the college football playoff, in Notre Dame's case, uh, without any more games on the schedule that would lend themselves to the proverbial Heisman moment. Um, you know, CJ Carr played very well in this win over Miami and South Bend last Saturday. But will there be much of a chance to burnish his credentials given that Notre Dame can't play in a conference championship game, that they do play SMU, but other than that, don't have a ton going on the rest of the way that's that's likely to have a lot of eyeballs on it. Because I also think there's an attention economy thing here about having these moments when people are watching. Um and that could even affect Jeremiah Smith. This this is tracking to be the least consequential Ohio State-Michigan game since the dawn of time. And does that make it harder for him to make his closing cases? It really is a fascinating race this year, different than any that I can remember.
SPEAKER_01You mentioned earlier uh Devin Dampier, we had him on the show to start it off uh fresh up a big win over BYU. He's up against Arizona, Noah Fafita on Saturday. What do you think about him? Can can Spider-Man help Utah get it done?
SPEAKER_00I think Dampier is a memorable college football player. I was watching the Holy War last Saturday, and I like to use the YouTube TV quad box that I have here in my den where I'm darting around from game to game because it helps me with episode prep for our podcast. And I see the throw down the field on a fourth and one in the second half of this game, and I see this incredible contorting catch. And I write down in my notes unbelievable throw by Dan Pier, like big time. And I didn't notice until maybe 30 minutes later that he was in fact catching that pass. Uh the and it wasn't even Bird Ficklin, the other quarterback who threw it to him. It was a wide receiver who threw it to him, and it was an incredible catch in traffic on a play where the trick element of it didn't even really work. He was covered fairly well. I will remember that play for years, and he is the quarterback of a currently undefeated team. I I wonder if there would be a vote splitting thing there because they have such a multifaceted running game like Weyshawn Parker does a lot of work there. He is literally not the only quarterback on his team who is involved in the flow of the game every week, but he's a great player, great story. I also think it's cool that New Mexico, the school that he came from, is managing to keep this thing chugging and do quite well under Jason Neck, even without him. Usually that's a story of a player of that caliber leaves a group of six team, you got big trouble there. But it seems like this has worked out just fine for everybody.
SPEAKER_01Funny you should mention New Mexico because we also had on Defensive End Darren Agu of uh the Lobos. How shocking is it that they are leading the nation in total defense and scoring defense, and they're right up there in pretty much every other defensive category.
SPEAKER_00Pretty stunning. It's stunning anytime a team gets one takeaway in a game on defense, and that materially lowers their average turnover count per game, but that's the way it is for New Mexico. I think their last game might have been their first of the year where they only took the ball away from the opponent once. They'd been doing it two, three, four times every other week. Um Darren is a great story. I believe he is from the United Kingdom.
SPEAKER_01Born in Ireland, raised in London, and he prefers his uh English breakfast to the New Mexico breakfast burrito.
SPEAKER_00That is uh that is an interesting example of how sometimes there's nothing quite like home. I I love the good people of of both Ireland and the United Kingdom. I'm not sure that they have a breakfast offering that I would put over a New Mexico breakfast burrito, but that's just me.
SPEAKER_01He does have that dry British wit. It was pretty fun to talk to him for sure. Technically, everyone's a Heisman hopeful. Anyone can get votes, but the Heisman electorate, like you mentioned, tends to gravitate towards certain positions, the skill players. What do you think would have to happen for one of those non-skill position players to win the Heisman? I mean, you look at Colin Simmons, let's just say that he had finished out the season on the pace that he was 30 tackles for loss, 20 sacks. Is that the kind of thing that could break through and win a Heisman trophy uh as a purely defensive player?
SPEAKER_00I think if it included the single season sacks record, it could. I don't have off the top of my head what that number is. It's got to be about 20-ish, right? Just at the all-time.
SPEAKER_01I believe uh I think it was 24 from uh Arizona State guy whose name is.
SPEAKER_00Oh, Terrell Suggs, right? Yeah, Terrell's I'm pretty sure. I think Terrell Suggs. That high. Unbelievable. I I do think that if Colin Simmons had been able to stay healthy and get to that number uh in a showcase program like Texas, that would have been really, really interesting. Uh it's a shame that Tony is injured because I think the way that that Miami offense is just constructed around him made for a compelling case. The way that and this isn't to diminish the quarterback Darien Mensa at all. Ball placement is still really important. You still have to run the offense. But the way that Tony could just catch passes behind the line of scrimmage on screens and swings and turn them into magic was really something. I think for Jeremiah Smith to do it is possible, and maybe as an example of how difficult it would be. I mean, I'm from Pittsburgh. I was a kid when Larry Fitzgerald was up for the Heisman in 2003, and Larry Fitzgerald was the receiver who I would have said until I saw Jeremiah Smith was the greatest receiver I had ever seen. And Larry came up just short to Jason White, I believe, the quarterback of Oklahoma that year. So it's just really hard to do it. But I think if you are a historically great player, who almost everyone agrees is historically great, you're at least going to be in that mix. I remember Indama Kung Su at Nebraska, similarly, in that mix, didn't ultimately win, but got a lot of buzz. And I think the other way to do it is for lack of a better term, to have some gimmicks. I don't like to put it that way. But you know, Jabril Peppers at Michigan was a great defensive back and a good punt returner, but they also gave him a few carries. And that made people think of Charles Woodson, I suspect. And it kind of gives this multi-position, multi-side of the ball thing, which was obviously capitalized on with Travis Hunter, who did it legit. I mean, Travis was an incredible wide receiver and incredible cornerback who played almost every down on both sides of the ball. So those are a couple of the paths, but it it does seem like it's very difficult.
SPEAKER_01Definitely need a hook. And don't forget, there was Devonta Smith in 2020. So there's technically been uh one and a half receivers who've won the Heisman over the last in this decade anyway. Um through it all, it seems like the playoff looms over everything in college football these days. It was recently announced that it's it is expanding to 24 teams. Thought you had a rather funny take on it recently with the video shot from the perspective of the SEC commissioner. Uh break down what you were trying to get across in that one.
SPEAKER_00Nobody made Texas and Oklahoma join the SEC. At a base at a basic level. The argument is that playoff expansion should happen for a few reasons. One of which is look at all these 9-3 and SE uh 8-4 SEC teams and Big Ten teams. Shouldn't they get a shot? They play in such a hard conference. Was it not okay when the playoff was even four teams and then twelve teams to just understand that sometimes you're gonna schedule tough, you're gonna lose three or four games, and you're not gonna get to play for the playoff? Like, was that that unreasonable? And if so, Texas, could you have just hung out in the Big 12 and continued to enjoy being the most prominent brand with the most political influence in the Big 12? Or if you are a coach, let's let's take an example of a more middling power conference program. Uh someone like Eli Drinkwitz at Missouri is a good example, or maybe Jed Fish at Washington. You've coached a lot of teams that are somewhere between the 10th and 30th best team in the country, and now you're much likelier to make the college football playoff because it's 24 teams, and there are there are a lot of coaches who think that that's gonna improve their job security. And there's athletic directors who think it's gonna make it easier to ask people for money to stock these rosters when you're able to point to a playoff spot. But my thought would be no, it won't. Um, at the end of the day, we see basketball teams fire coaches after they make the NCAA tournament. I think we're gonna see it happen in football sometimes too, frankly, in in years to come. And I I just fear what this is going to do to the regular season. I do. I don't think it can kill it. I I think people are very overwrought when they make predictions about the demise or the death of college football. I don't think it'll ever happen. But I wouldn't like to find out.
SPEAKER_01Well, how long before we get a uh four-loss national champ, do you think? How many years will it take?
SPEAKER_00I don't think we will get a four-loss national champion. Which actually I think raises a great point about why this is necessary at all, or why it is unnecessary. At the end of the day, this is not a sport where a team that goes eight and four in the regular season is gonna turn it on and win how many playoff games now would you have to win? Five playoff games to get from the round of 24, 16, 8, 4-2. Yeah. It just seems impractical to me. I mean, perhaps if it were a case in a very rare year, like the current Ohio State Buckeyes, who look like they're gonna miss the 12 team. But let's say that their quarterback, Julian Saiyan, got healthy in time for the playoff, and they went on the road as the 20 23 seed in the playoff. Maybe just maybe. But uh I I tend to think that the playoff is already big enough to capture all of the teams that have a real national champion quality to them.
SPEAKER_01But of course the strategies change, right? There's not the sense of urgency to to win every game. Won't that change the way uh teams look at their roster management going into the season? Make sure to you keep guys healthy for the end. Maybe you're playing your your younger guys early on to try to get them going, and maybe they flub up a bit, and and but then the committee's there to say, well, they weren't playing their best guys.
SPEAKER_00I think it's an interesting proposition. What I don't think will happen is this doomsday scenario where people will say that Jeremiah Smith wouldn't be playing for Ohio State against Michigan because they're getting ready for the playoffs. I don't expect that to happen because frankly, I think there's just a culture around this sport that would make that pretty unlikely. And I and I also think there's contractual considerations that would make that pretty unlikely. But I think what you bring up, Chris, is really interesting about perhaps a little bit more lineup rotation early in the year, especially in what is now just going to be probably two guarantee game, non-conference games for the power conference leagues, because they all have to play 10 P4 teams going forward. Uh could you rotate things over a bit, keep people a little bit fresher, knowing that your season could be 17 games now, a full NFL schedule in order to win the national championship. I I I do think that's uh uh a pretty astute observation and possibility.
SPEAKER_01We shall see. Like we talked about this is the last year of the 12-team playoff. Uh we've only had it for three seasons. I don't think either of us really like the 24 team uh format, but if you could may wave a magic wand, which of the past formats would you return to?
SPEAKER_00If I could if I could wave a magic wand and also change people's memories and expectations, I actually think I would go back to two. And I think I would let human beings select the two. So it would be a modified BCS playoff system where a human committee picks the two, and it would just be understood that everything else is still fine, that you know it is worth making a great bowl game, worth winning your conference, etc. I think I would go back to that, but given that I can't go back to that, I can't change people's minds and memories and expectations. I like 12 quite a bit. I think 12 is a pretty good number. I think 12 has not dulled much of the edge on the regular season. I understand that it has provided some respites for teams like Ohio State in 24, loses to Michigan, still goes on and wins the national title. But I'm okay with that. I think that's been fine, and I think it's kept more games interesting for longer. So I like 12. I think it was such a good idea that they probably should have stuck with it for more than three years.
SPEAKER_01I'd like to go back to the old bull system myself, but uh I really like January 1st and all those bullshit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I will miss. I mean, there will be Rose Bowls, plenty of them that will not be on January 1st. And I'm not saying that you have to hold up all progress in the name of having a football game on the same day as as as a parade in Pasadena, but I wouldn't just, you know, disregard it out of hand either. There's there's a reason why this sport is special to a lot of people. Yeah, it's a good idea. And it's that it does different things like that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh you have a regular series about fireable coaches, which is really fun. Uh, who are the leaders in this area right now?
SPEAKER_00You know, right now, uh the three coaches that I'm most interested in firing-wise, are three first-year coaches because this never happens for non-scandal reasons. It's it's Will Hall at Tulane, Kyle Whittingham at Michigan, and Tosh LePoy at Cal. We have three different situations where the most plugged-in insider reporters in our industry seem to be crediting pretty seriously the possibility that just because things aren't going well, that these coaches may be fired in their first years. And I think in all three of those cases, the fan bases seem like they'd be pretty pleased for that to happen, at least at Michigan, at least at Tulane, and and maybe a little bit more of a split at Cal. I am fascinated by this. I can't really endorse the buyout industrial complex getting the boon that this would be to just pay all these guys all these years out not to work, but it's not going well in any of these three places.
SPEAKER_01No, uh it's not. Uh, you've also got a series on the worst coaching hires in history. And there's one guy who I keep thinking I'm gonna see, uh, but I haven't seen yet, although maybe you have mentioned him before I saw the series start. Where do you stand on former Notre Dame coach Jerry Faust?
SPEAKER_00You know, I have thought about doing a Jerry Faust, and maybe his time will come. I sometimes forget this, that Notre Dame has had an alarming number of just not very good football coaches, most of whom were sort of around like a little bit before Lou Holtz came into this job. Like there was just a you know, there's kind of these tent pole guys in Notre Dame football coaching history. Uh, you know, you go go way, way back to Newt Rockney or Frank Leahy, who was a military almost hero who used the GI bill to build these these dynasties, uh, Eric Parsigian, uh, I think I'm probably leaving out two or three important Notre Dame coaches, Dan Devine. But then like after Holtz, they had the period where they had Bob Davy and Ty Willingham back to back, and right before him they had Jerry Faust. And so there's between those guys, there's what, 15 years or so of Notre Dame just straightforwardly, 12 years of Notre Dame just really not being good with any regularity. I'm 32. That doesn't really register to me. I laugh about the 2016 season when they went four and eight one time under Brian Kelly. And, you know, a guy like Jerry Faust just seems so foreign to me that someone could take over the Notre Dame job and win, what, seven games a year, five games in a year, and that that was just what he did was win between five and seven games every year. You might as well be telling me about aliens several galaxies away.
SPEAKER_01Well, but the big story about Jerry Faust wasn't the games he won or didn't win, it was the fact that he was hired after being a high school coach. He was hired from Mower High in Cincinnati, which it will say what you want about Ty Willingham or Bob Davy, those guys actually coached in college. Yes. Jerry Faust. Imagine this is the equivalent of the modern-day head coach becoming the head coach at Alabama, or the IMG Academy head coach being named the head coach at Alabama. It just wouldn't happen. And it just struck me as such a wild pick at the time.
SPEAKER_00It strikes me as still wild when athletic directors do this. I understand that Philip Rivers is an NC State icon, but he's also a high school football coach who is seemingly poised to become the head coach at NC State. UAB tried this a few years ago with Trent Dilfer, who had not been a college football coach, was a high school football coach. It went terribly. My thought is that coaching college football is extremely hard. It's so hard that Bill Belichick, the greatest football coach of all time, can't really do it. And so Faust is a tremendous data point. I'm glad you bring him up. How many of these cases are there where this has has worked? Not a lot. Smaller number than the times that it's failed.
SPEAKER_01Maybe back in the 30s, but uh no one remembers that stuff.
SPEAKER_00So very much.
SPEAKER_01Let's close out with a few predictions on this coming weekend's games. You ready?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01All right. Miami at Duke, who you got?
SPEAKER_00Miami, although I think Duke might have a little something. I think they'll be very motivated to play their former quarterback, Darien Mensah. How will Nate Shepard do? He's gonna have a big game, is he gonna make a run? Nate Shepard has a big game almost every week. Uh uh he's what, like 20-ish touchdowns accounted for on the season, including one that he threw, bunch receiving, bunch rushing. But I'm afraid that this may not be his most statistically prolific outing this week. Not it's not your fault, though, Nate.
SPEAKER_01We got uh Gio Lopez coming back, hopefully, uh for Wake Forest's sake uh against SMU and Kevin Jennings, the king of Dallas. What about that one?
SPEAKER_00Wake Forest, I think their edge rushing tandem, Langston Hardy and Gabe Kershke heats up Kevin Jennings a bit. Kevin Jennings has put the turnovers kind of in a box this year. He has done a lot better taking care of the ball. Maybe that changes against a really sublime Wake pass rush that gets near him pretty frequently in this game.
SPEAKER_01Mizo at Georgia.
SPEAKER_00Georgia. I am done with the Missouri thing. I have been excited about them over the course of the year, but I just don't think it's gonna happen. And Georgia's too good. USC at Indiana. I predict that the loser is gonna feel really bad. Uh I think Indiana wins because I think their defensive front is the best unit in the game and they're playing at home. But this one makes me queasy to call either way, honestly. I I could come up with three good reasons why either of these teams wins this one, and I think the loser is gonna be in hell when this thing ends.
SPEAKER_01And then finally Texas and LSU.
SPEAKER_00LSU, I think, because I don't think that Texas can block them, particularly in the pass rush. And maybe Arch Manning can screen pass his way to success in this game. But I think the LSU pass rush is the differentiator, and I think LSU wins better.
SPEAKER_01He is Alex Kirschner, folks. Check him out on the Split Zone Duo podcast and on social media. Great stuff coming out from this great independent journalist. Thanks for coming on the show, Alex, and we'll see you down the road. Chris, this was a lot of fun. Thank you for having me. Well, that'll do it for this episode of the Heisman Hopefuls Podcast. A reminder that this year's Heisman Finalists will be announced on Monday, December 7th, with the winner to be announced on Saturday, December 12th. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel and to our social media platforms at Heisman Trophy. And don't forget to make your voice heard by participating in the Heisman fan vote. Just go to hopefuls.heisman.com to vote for your favorite player. I'm Chris Houston, and we'll see you next week.
